A contrary take on a simple red Burgundy

WINE TALK
81

… a minefield of values [cheers.gif]

82

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If you want to see what Burgundy tastes like, buy one with some age on it (or 2007). One can still buy 2001s and 2002s at decent prices. But, more importantly, don’t buy blind. Go into a store with a good reputation for Burgundy and ask for help.

Or better yet, stay away from Burgundy. If California Pinot and Barbera give you what you want, buy those.

83

Alex, if you go into a good wine store with a good selection of Bordeaux, you will find a $50 bottle of Bordeaux that provides excellent value and is good for drinking that night. You have developed over many years something called knowledge. If someone else goes into the same store, does not know much about Bordeaux, does not ask for help, picks up a random bottle of Bordeaux for $50 that they think they may have heard of somewhere, brings it home, opens her up and drinks the wine, how good do you think the wine will be?

84

Howard,

I wish I could answer that question, and as honestly as possible, but it really all dépends on the choice that’s available!
I freely admit that there is a lot of so-so Bordeaux in the inexpensive category and that care - at some level, either the store or the consumer - needs to be taken in selecting.

Comparisons of Bordeaux and Burgundy often end up a blind alley, but my take is this: inexpensive Bordeaux is better value for money, but when you move up the scale, the middle range of Burgundy (I’m thinking premier cru wines vs. lower-ranking classified growths) is a better deal than Bordeaux.

I think that with some of the huge price rises in the Côte d’Or, there is every motivation for:

  • Producers in less exalted appellations to turn out better wines
  • the wine trade to get off their hind quarters and search out wines they may have previously snubbed or been unaware of.

All the best,
Alex R.

85

I am also curious about the food and drink you may have had during the day, leading up to the tasting. Could strongly flavored food (chocolate, sugary/energy drinks, products with vinegar, captain crunch, highly spiced/hot food, thermally hot foods, etc) temporarily blunt one’s tasting abilities intra-day?

86

I’m a burgundy lover and frequent burgundy drinker. About 90% of my cellar is burgundy (down from 100% a few years ago). While I now buy almost exclusively grand and premier crus wines, I’ve got plenty of village wines from years past. It is now incredibly rare that I walk into a wine store with a $50 target and find a burgundy that I have any interest in drinking. Even roulot bourgogne has now crossed the $50 mark. Burgeut’s favorites is no longer a bargain. Leroy’s '09 bourgogne rouge and '02 bourgogne grand ordinaire were the last two wines that I can think of really wanting in that price range. Frankly, at that price range, I would much rather have pinot noir from the jura, cab franc, chenin blanc or muscadet from the loire, or some of the more interesting things going on in California (see Ross Massey’s thread on winemakers living on the edge). Cheers to you if you are still finding great burgundy for under $50, but for those who aren’t I’m right there with you and the good news is that there is an ocean of great wine at that price point!
A

87

I totally disagree with Alex’s comment. As prices have gone up all over in Burgundy, I personally think quality has vastly improved at the lower levels - high prices for Bourgogne (and they’ve doubled in the past 10 years at many domaines) and the like permit lower yields, better barrels, more expensive viticultural techniques, etc. One wonders how much of the difference between an exalted terroir and an ordinary one lies in the amount of money and care taken in producing the respective bottles!

Anyways, I submit that once you know that you like the style of a producer, you will almost certainly get great pleasure from their low-level bottles; rarely is the delta that great between the trophies and the wines for lunch. The H-N village wines, recommended above, are a great example of that. If you enjoy Pavelot’s or Chandon de Brialles Savigny 1ers, you’re telling me you’re not going to enjoy the Savigny village wines for $35? (Benjamin Leroux, who is a terrific winemaker, makes village wines at around that same price). Or the numerous bottles from the Hautes Cotes by great producers, which get increasingly good as the climate warms . . .

88

Kevin

If I were to pick a bottle off the shelf and drink it with dinner, I would go for a 2007 not a 2009. I would in fact look at ratings from other people (critics, CT, whatever) and see if your palate aligns with someone, then go from there. The whole point of Burghound was to allow people to purchase wines with confidence precisely because of the fact that burgundy is expensive (if I remember correctly).

Lots of threads exist on reasonably priced burgundy. I would start with those and if after trying suggested wines you are not happy, then there is no point flogging your budget purchasing wines you don’t enjoy. If I had a backlog of Barberas (or Quintarelli) I’d be very happy!

Also, if I read WB threads correctly the best time to sample red burgs is on release and after 10-15 years (or more) so sampling them at age 5 is going to be disappointing pretty much all the time. Recent vintages drinking well now include 2000 and 2007, with 2002 open but not optimal. Other posters have different views on this of course.

Anyway, good luck. Can’t fault you for trying and being honest about your experiences.

Cheers,
Doug

89

Burgundy is an up and down. I think it does´t make sense to deny it. If you open a Burgundy at the wrong moment it can happen that you are pretty underwhelmed. That is a pity. But on the other hand - opened at the right moment one can be totally surprised how delicious even a village level wine is. Sure – if someones house wine is 20 years old Rousseau Clos St. Jaques, Leoville Las Cases or Giacosa Red Label it will get difficult to adore a village Level Burgundy. But for the more mortal like me who drinks Grands Crus only at special occasions so called lesser Burgundy can be wonderful. Even from satellite areas such as Monthelie, Rully etc.

90

I guess I should consider myself lucky. I still love what a $25 burgundy can bring, including many from Bourgogne, Rully, Savigny-les-Beaune, Cotes-de-Nuits/Beaune villages, Monthelie, Mercurey etc. In fact, I frequently prefer to drink these for their haunting minerality, balance, and restraint versus many similarly priced US wines.*

  • this being said, I still do buy my share of US or Aussie cabs/pinots/merlots/zinfandels/syrahs for those nights where I (or, more likely, my wife) wishes to drink something with more emphasis on fruit
91

Pardon me for intruding on this thread as I have zero Burgundy cred, and only one bottle in my modest cellar, but I do have tons of Beaujolais and drink them quite regularly. Isn’t this the answer to the question? Do you Burgophiles consider Beaujolais your “every-day” QPR alternative when not popping your whoppers? There is a broad range of really wonderful Beaujolais in that sub-$25 USD range. And ever so food friendly. Scandalous indeed, but I had a Chateau Thivin with spicey sushi last night.

92

Beaujolais is far too reasonably priced and reliable to be considered a substitute for Burgundy. It is kind of kept as a secret that it is part of Burgundy. But the wines are very different. Burgundy is a lot of things, but it will never be easy and it will never be cheap.

93

Cru-Beaujolais, definitely, along with Barbera, Dolcetto, Muscadet, Riesling, and even the occasional Cava. These are my everyday table wines. Jean Foillard at a little over $30 is my high end purchase, and Jean Marc Burgaud at around $15 at the other end. Much more satisfying than the Hautes Cotes/Bourgognes at similar prices.

As noted above, 2007 is your go-to Burgundy restaurant vintage. I purchased two cases of the '07 Jadot Clos de la Croix de Pierre recently for everyday Burg drinkers this Fall/Winter at $27/btl. I’m still seeing recent vintages of Briailles 1ers in the $30s (Lavieres, Fourneaux). Someone mentioned Ben Leroux’s negoce villages, and I picked up 4 of his '08 SLBs at a local shop for $35/btl that are drinking beautifully. I find all of these to be on par with Foillard’s Morgon at around the same price (or even a little less).

But there is no doubt that the OP’s general sense about Burgundy is correct. It is perhaps the last place to look for bargains. Except for Chablis and Beaujolais, and to a lesser extent the Chalonnaise which appears to have done quite well in 2012.

94

I love both cru Beaujolais and Red Burgundy, but to me they have very little in common – different grapes, different terroir, different winemaking techniques. If I have a Burgundy itch, drinking Beaujolais won’t scratch it, and vice versa.

95

wtf is spicy sushi you neanderthal. [snort.gif] [snort.gif]

96

I have nothing worthwhile to add. I just really liked this phrase.

97

I agree when it comes to young wines, except with winemaking techniques, which can be very similar with certain Beaujolais producers. With mature wines, though, I completely disagree.

98

I don’t doubt that lower level wines bring pleasure (although Chandon de Briailles strikes me as on odd example as those might be a fashionable board darling now but the wines are pretty difficult in their youth, and in fact even in their middle age, with the exception of the atypical '09s). I just think on a per dollar basis they are generally losers. I like Mugnier’s style. I really like the fuees. I love the musigny. The chambolle was great at $20. At $120? No thanks. Of course there are certainly exceptions. Chevillon’s village NSG is still out there for $50 and worth every penny. I will drink Boisson-Vadot’s meursaults all day and cellar cases at current prices. But in general the burgundies that I want to cellar and drink are coming at a significantly higher price point.

Don’s example of the $50 H-N vosne might be a nice drink. I can’t comment because I haven’t had it, but I’ve had good experiences with the H-N vosne 1er crus. There is one problem, which is that Don’s $50 2012 H-N vosne doesn’t actually exist. The wine costs $60. So I’m not sure that is a great example.

A

99

Anything that goes through carbonic maceration strikes me as very different than what I think of as a “typical” burgundy, and that covers a lot of the producers that I like in beaujo. I don’t consider beaujo to be an everyday QPR alternative just because of its proximity to burgundy. However, I do think of it as an alternative in the sense that if you want to spend roughly $30 on a wine and get something really wonderful, beaujo would be one of the myriad places where you could spend better than burgundy.

A

100

It may not be available now but that wasn’t a crazy price. I paid $45 at Wine Club. I don’t think they changed the price from the 2011. I think the Chambolle is easier to find and it’s good too at the same price.