2009 Pagodes de Cos @ $55!

[Marc_Frontario]

How about 2009 Alter Ego for $50?

Not sure what this is about? Ekovitch, have you ever tasted the Ego?
I would count my blessings to get this wine at this price, the Ego is the real deal. Blind my 04’s have taken down some of the big boy bordeaux’s, even some cali cult cabs the likes of Ovid. Still a qpr at $50

[Kris_Patten]

@Keith Levenberg

I stopped buying second wines when Carruades de Lafite broke $40.

I started selling them when Carruades hit $250.

[Mark_Golodetz]

@Jeff Leve

@Mark Mason

Is the 2009 Cos d’Estournel THAT much better than the 2008 that I paid $110 for on futures?

Mark… Having tasted both 2008 and 2009,2009 is THAT much better! This does not mean it’s worth the money to you. But 2009 Cos is a remarkable wine with the potentail to hit triple digits from Bob.

Jeff, the 2009 Cos is so controversial that any advice on it is completely useless and a little irresponsible. While Bob, and like minded palates, scored it high, others have disliked the wine, and others went way beyond just dislike, to downright loathing. No wine that I am aware of has polarized the community as much (with the possible exception of 2003 Pavie) Past history has shown that even if Parker does give it the 100 point cherry, the pricing is so high now, that it is hard to imagine it going into $300 plus territory. Montrose has not moved higher after getting 100 points, and Cos 2003 is still available at $170, long after the score was upgraded.

so:-

1. There is absolutely no reason to buy in quantity before actually trying the wine.
2. Going back to the Pagodes, it is a decent wine (I scored it like the Cos around 85 points.)
3. The price is ludicrous.
4. It is not as good as wines such as Issan, Lagrange, Branaire etc, all of which are less expensive.

As far as I can see, there is absolutely no reason to buy Pagodes for more than $25. At the current price, just pass. As for Cos 2009, TRY IT BEFORE BUYING.

[Tom_Lee]

@Lance Smith

@Jeff Leve

@Mark Mason

Is the 2009 Cos d’Estournel THAT much better than the 2008 that I paid $110 for on futures?

Mark… Having tasted both 2008 and 2009,2009 is THAT much better! This does not mean it’s worth the money to you. But 2009 Cos is a remarkable wine with the potentail to hit triple digits from Bob.

As to pricing for Pagodes. I am not buying it. But with the exception of Chapelle Ausone, (which costs a lot more than Pagodes) I do not purchase second wines. That being said, from people who have actually tasted 2009 Pagodes, they say the wine is better than any vintage of COS produced in the 90’s and except for 82, Pagodes is better than any vintage from that decade as well.

Wow, bold play there!

'96 Cos is a stunner, not to mention a few other vintages in there ('90/'95). I am sure we can debate this in a few years but until then, I’ll remain convinced that the '09 Pagodes isn’t up to snuff, at least not at this ‘futures’ price.

Caught myself thinking the same thing. Had an 88 Cos recently that was fabulous. Not even sure how you can make a comparison of the 09 Pagodes to an 88 Cos…although each wine may stand on its own merits.

Tom

[Jim_Brennan]

@Mark Golodetz

@Jeff Leve

@Mark Mason

Is the 2009 Cos d’Estournel THAT much better than the 2008 that I paid $110 for on futures?

Mark… Having tasted both 2008 and 2009,2009 is THAT much better! This does not mean it’s worth the money to you. But 2009 Cos is a remarkable wine with the potentail to hit triple digits from Bob.

Jeff, the 2009 Cos is so controversial that any advice on it is completely useless and a little irresponsible. While Bob, and like minded palates, scored it high, others have disliked the wine, and others went way beyond just dislike, to downright loathing. No wine that I am aware of has polarized the community as much (with the possible exception of 2003 Pavie) Past history has shown that even if Parker does give it the 100 point cherry, the pricing is so high now, that it is hard to imagine it going into $300 plus territory. Montrose has not moved higher after getting 100 points, and Cos 2003 is still available at $170, long after the score was upgraded.

so:-

1. There is absolutely no reason to buy in quantity before actually trying the wine.
2. Going back to the Pagodes, it is a decent wine (I scored it like the Cos around 85 points.)
3. The price is ludicrous.
4. It is not as good as wines such as Issan, Lagrange, Branaire etc, all of which are less expensive.

As far as I can see, there is absolutely no reason to buy Pagodes for more than $25. At the current price, just pass. As for Cos 2009, TRY IT BEFORE BUYING.

One has to wonder about the agenda of someone who cannot come to what is clearly such an obvious conclusion.

[Marcu_Stanley]

@Jeff Leve

As to pricing for Pagodes. I am not buying it. But with the exception of Chapelle Ausone, (which costs a lot more than Pagodes) I do not purchase second wines. That being said, from people who have actually tasted 2009 Pagodes, they say the wine is better than any vintage of COS produced in the 90’s and except for 82, Pagodes is better than any vintage from that decade as well.

To be specific, it was Jean-Guillaume Prats who said this! Not a disinterested party. It seems like a ludicruous claim to me, it reads as a blanket rejection of all pre-2000 Bordeaux styling. But I do admire it as one of the boldest pieces of marketing hype I have ever heard from a Bdx chateau owner, which is saying a lot.

[john_enea]

@b hudak

Insane!!! That is what I bought the 2000, 01, and 02 Cos d’estournel for!

+1

[Chris_Seiber]

I had a 1995 Pagodes de Cos a couple of years ago, and it was probably the worst Bordeaux I’ve ever had. Like drinking the water you just boiled a bunch of bell peppers in.

[k_s_h_i_n]

@WKChoy

I just did a cellar revaluation. It’s not just Bordeaux and Burgundy that has gone up. I have an Italian that has gone up 100% in 2 years. I also have a Spanish wine that has almost quadrupled in value in 3 years.

Since I bought these wines, I suppose the ‘Chinese’ are indeed buying the crap out of Bordeaux, Burgundy, Italian and Spanish wines.

An investment professional explains it to me differently. Too much money is being printed leading to asset inflation. We live in a world of budget deficits.

I bet the Italian is monfortino, giacosa or masseto. Spanish obviously Unico. The only wines that have gone up are the Bob close to 100 pointers, Lafite and the other first growth, Petrus, Le Pin and DRC RC and La Tache. There is no good reason to buy the 09s en primeur except Lafite and Beausejour Duffau at this stage.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Jim Brennan

one has to wonder about the agenda of someone who cannot come to what is clearly such an obvious conclusion.

The only conclusion I come to is, many people think the wine is great. Some don’t. So what? I tasted it multiple times and thought it was one of the best wines from the vintage.

I like Mark. I’ve tasted with Mark. His palate and mine are not the same. As much as I am not going to like a wine like 08 Cantermerle for it’s lack of fruit, he is not going to like a wine with this much fruit and ripeness.

If you come to any other conclusion, I am happy for you.

*** Regarding the Pagodes, the wine is very good. Having tasted it, it is much better than any previous vintage of Pagodes. IMO, it’s probably a better wine than 2000 Cos. There are many wines in 2009 that are not as strong as Pagodes that sell for a lot more money.

[M_A_T_T_H_A_R_T_L_E_Y]

@Jeff Leve

[
*** Regarding the Pagodes, the wine is very good. Having tasted it, it is much better than any previous vintage of Pagodes. IMO, it’s probably a better wine than 2000 Cos. There are many wines in 2009 that are not as strong as Pagodes that sell for a lot more money.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Mark Golodetz

@Jeff Leve

@Mark Mason

Is the 2009 Cos d’Estournel THAT much better than the 2008 that I paid $110 for on futures?

Mark… Having tasted both 2008 and 2009,2009 is THAT much better! This does not mean it’s worth the money to you. But 2009 Cos is a remarkable wine with the potentail to hit triple digits from Bob.

Jeff, the 2009 Cos is so controversial that any advice on it is completely useless and a little irresponsible. While Bob, and like minded palates, scored it high, others have disliked the wine, and others went way beyond just dislike, to downright loathing. No wine that I am aware of has polarized the community as much (with the possible exception of 2003 Pavie) Past history has shown that even if Parker does give it the 100 point cherry, the pricing is so high now, that it is hard to imagine it going into $300 plus territory. Montrose has not moved higher after getting 100 points, and Cos 2003 is still available at $170, long after the score was upgraded.

so:-

1. There is absolutely no reason to buy in quantity before actually trying the wine.
2. Going back to the Pagodes, it is a decent wine (I scored it like the Cos around 85 points.)
3. The price is ludicrous.
4. It is not as good as wines such as Issan, Lagrange, Branaire etc, all of which are less expensive.

As far as I can see, there is absolutely no reason to buy Pagodes for more than $25. At the current price, just pass. As for Cos 2009, TRY IT BEFORE BUYING.

Mark… We agree on one point, 2009 Cos is probably not a wine to sepeculate on. I am a bit surprised that you scored Pagodes and Cos the same. For those that don’t know Mark, he calls it as he sees it. But it does not make sense to me.

I liked Pagodes a lot. IMO, it’s about the same quality as Clerc Milion and it’s a better wine than Grand Puy Lacoste which sells for more money.

In a blind tasting, where people will not shoot the because it’s only a second wine, Pagodes would more than hold its own.

I have a question for you. Do you like 2009 as a vintage? Where do you place it against other years from 2000 forward?

*** Matt, you can disgaree with me until the cows come home. But at least I tasted the wine on more thabn one occasion before saying what I thought of it. I look forward to your notes when you finally taste it.

[M_A_T_T_H_A_R_T_L_E_Y]

This graph is soooo relevant here…pretty sure 2009 Cos is the “New Paradigm”

[Jeff_Leve]

@M A T T H A R T L E Y

This graph is soooo relevant here…pretty sure 2009 Cos is the “New Paradigm”

Matt… You seem to have glossed over everything I said. Let me make it easy for you.

@Jeff Leve

2009 Cos is probably not a wine to sepeculate on.

@Jeff Leve

*** Matt, you can disgaree with me until the cows come home. But at least I tasted the wine on more than one occasion before saying what I thought of it. I look forward to your notes when you finally taste it.

[Rob_MacKay]

@Tim Corliss

nice work Bordeaux. I stopped buying a few years ago. No plans to buy any in the future and I don’t feel like I am missing a thing.

That’s a pretty big paintbrush you have there Tim. There are still some good values to be found.

[Marcu_Stanley]

@Jeff Leve

I liked Pagodes a lot. IMO, it’s about the same quality as Clerc Milion and it’s a better wine than Grand Puy Lacoste which sells for more money.

It’s a valid point that Jeff has tasted the wines and most of the rest of us have not (me included). But this will always be true en primeur unless you’re one of the few who visits for the barrel tastings. Given the track records of Grand Puy Lacoste vs. Pagodes in previous vintages, though, I would be glad to pay $12 more per bottle for GPL. GPL is a consistently fine classic Paulliac that I know will age and has proven its worth over the years.

I’d also note that out of the eight critics with en primeur ratings listed on the Farr Vintner’s tasting library, seven of them preferred GPL to Cos, most by a whole lot. Only one – Parker – preferred the Pagodes, and that not by much (91-93 vs. 91-94).

From the critics notes, Pagodes sounds like a sweet, fruity Napa cab. $55 is a pretty standard price for a midrange version of that. Perhaps we should be pointing out that it’s cheaper than Silver Oak?

[Rob_MacKay]

I think it’s quite a statement to say that Cos leftovers are better then most estate’s first wine…

[Bill_Tex_Landreth]

@Rob MacKay

I think it’s quite a statement to say that Cos leftovers are better then most estate’s first wine…

No dog in the Cos fight, but as a frame of reference, the 2001 Matriarch was pretty damn good and above quite a few first wines in CA for that vintage…at least to me.

[M_A_T_T_H_A_R_T_L_E_Y]

Jeff -

Couple things:

1. How can one get what “should” be the lowest price, the futures price, without speculating? Take your word? Parkers? IWC? Wine Spectator? Some speculation is needed. Not all of us are as well connected as you. You’ve tasted the wines several times and LOVE them…can’t you commit and say buy or don’t buy? Don’t tell me its the best Cos ever made and then tell me “but don’t speculate”…so BUY, but maybe don’t buy…
2. Release price of $250 - $300 when your wine ten years ago was $60 is borderline bubble…316% increase when most asset classes can’t claim anything even close over a similar time frame…so yeah, I think that graph is relevant here…
3. I won’t waste $250 of my dollars to taste a wine that many people whose opinion I value VERY highly in the wine profession say stay away…

Just my $.02…

@Jeff Leve

@M A T T H A R T L E Y

This graph is soooo relevant here…pretty sure 2009 Cos is the “New Paradigm”

Matt… You seem to have glossed over everything I said. Let me make it easy for you.

@Jeff Leve

2009 Cos is probably not a wine to sepeculate on.

@Jeff Leve

*** Matt, you can disgaree with me until the cows come home. But at least I tasted the wine on more than one occasion before saying what I thought of it. I look forward to your notes when you finally taste it.

[Rob_MacKay]

@Bill Tex Landreth

@Rob MacKay

I think it’s quite a statement to say that Cos leftovers are better then most estate’s first wine…

No dog in the Cos fight, but as a frame of reference, the 2001 Matriarch was pretty damn good and above quite a few first wines in CA for that vintage…at least to me.

Ok Bill… You got me… My own tasting notes for The Matriarch, in several vintages, state the same thing. But that’s not too hard to do for CA Cab right?