12 Angry men: Who Are They

[Brent_C_l_a_y_t_o_n]

I thought some of the ‘stories’ are also born of the auction night dinners and other Acker events which were pay to play but had epic wine flights, so not necessarily indicating the participants all had huge $$$ wine cellars? I don’t think you’ll find a shortage of praise for Ray here, he has certainly been kind and generous with many members here and drinking with him is always a pleasure. I don’t know any other confirmed/alleged members personally.

[edwardmilstein]

Sorry to disappoint some,but although I know and have drunk with most of those listed,I was never a member of the 12 angry men- nor do I know who the members were .Never seemed to matter much,and was never invited.

[Ken_V]

@edwardmilstein

Sorry to disappoint some,but although I know and have drunk with most of those listed,I was never a member of the 12 angry men- nor do I know who the members were .Never seemed to matter much,and was never invited.

Hi Ed, are you this Ed Milstein?

Level One's Bill Todman Jr, Edward Milstein To Make Film About Wine Fraud Who...

If so, congratulations on your success in life.

[edwardmilstein]

Yes- Should make a good movie.

[paul_hanna]

@edwardmilstein

Yes- Should make a good movie.

Cool…


So…

Who is going to play Don then…

[Andrew_L]

@edwardmilstein

Sorry to disappoint some,but although I know and have drunk with most of those listed,I was never a member of the 12 angry men- nor do I know who the members were .Never seemed to matter much,and was never invited.

Edward, I had assumed that “The Punisher” was a member of the 12 Angry Men, as per this quote:

@NY Mag

Kapon introduced Kurniawan to an enthusiastic, New York–based circle of new collectors who called themselves the 12 Angry Men, had bombastic nicknames like the Punisher and King Angry

As per this exchange in an archived thread, you are “The Punisher” (http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=215309):

@Jeff Leve

It’s always exciting for wine lovers to experience mature wines. Most of the time, older bottles, due to old age and provenance fail to live up to their potential. But when they do, at least for me, it’s the ultimate wine experience. Recently, over dinner in New York with John Kapon and a gentleman who goes by the well earned sobriquet of “The Punisher.” I was fortunate to experience not just one, but several wines over 100 years old that delivered the goods.

WD 50 in New York is an interesting place to dine. The food combinations were as challenging to me as they were to the wines. Perhaps chef/owner Wiley Dufresne was listening to King Crimson’s “Larks’ Tounges in Aspic” when he came up with the starter course, Lambs tongue with apricot. I am not sure caviar with fried chicken or peanut butter pasta paired with lamb are going to be dishes I would request anymore than I want to have lambs tongue again. But I had a blast experiencing them with The Punisher and John Kapon. We had at least 16 courses and skipped an endless array of desserts as it was after midnight when the bottles stopped being opened. We were more than satiated by that point.

When I sat down to dinner, The Punisher laughingly said, “Tonight, we’re drinking 01, 03, 04, 05 & 07 Lafite”. I’ve had all those wines before, but not at the same time. I was excited! In fact, 03 Lafite was so good the last time I tasted it, I’m tempted to call it the wine of the vintage! While I had not met The Punisher before, I knew who he was. We share mutual friends and I was aware of wines he liked, which left me a bit surprised we were going to be tasting so many young wines, due to his penchant for mature bottles. Much to my chagrin, shock and pleasure, I quickly discovered I was off by more than a few years on the vintages. This time in a voice that sounded like a command from Batman, The Punisher announced, “We were about to drink 1901, 1903, 1904, 1905 & 1907 Lafite”! With an embarrassed, mile wide smile, I quickly laughed off my gaffe and experienced our first 100 year old bottle of the night thinking about what took place in history the year the wine was born.

In 1900, America had only 46 states with a population of 76 million citizens and only 8,000 cars. Average wages were close to $13 for a 60 hour work week! Long distance phone service was just being introduced. Beef was 10 cents a pound and First Growth’s were under a dollar. William McKinley was President, Baseball, our most popular sport had just introduced the American league. While all that was going on, Bordeaux experienced a monumental harvest!

1900 Pichon Baron offered smells of tobacco, truffles, barnyard, tea, cedar, cassis and an array of ground spices. This was amazingly young and fresh for 109 years old! The mouth starts with an aged patina of blackberry and cassis. The wine took over an hour before gently fading away. I wonder what vintages like 1989, 1990, 2000 or 2005 will be like at 100 years of age? I imagine they will probably be even better. 91 Pts

1901 Lafite resembled tea and bricks in the color. Aromatics of chocolate, caramel, gingerbread, Cuban cigars, cedar, minerals, chocolate and brown sugar were easy to find. This was still concentrated with an array of black and red fruit complicated by spice and kirsch that filled your palate with sensations. The wine was opulent and lush in the finish. The wine remained at full force for at least 90 minutes before gently slipping away. 93 Pts

1904 Lafite was filled with Asian spices, root beer, vanilla, cassis, tobacco and earthy notes. On the palate, there was good weight and density. The finish was not quite as enjoyable as the aromatics and the length was shorter than what we found in the 1901. That being said, at over 100 years old, this was a once in a life time experience. 89 Pts

1905 Lafite is probably not the vinous equivalent of its centennial brother, the 2005. Red fruit, spice, truffle were easy to find, but in the mouth, the wine displayed sharp, tart, decaying flavors. The wine was not dead, it was closer to simple and light as some pleasure could be found. But like any of us at 105 years old, getting to 105 was the accomplishment. At that age, it ain’t getting better. :-0) 82 Pts

1907 Lafite like the other turn of the century wines resembled light, tea colors with hints of rose. Spices, cedar, herbs, earth, tobacco, truffles, forest and leather aromatics emanated from the glass with a slight swirl. In the mouth, light black cherry with hints of steel fell over your palate buttressed by velvety soft textures. 91 Pts

1925 Mouton was my first experience with a ’25. Very light red in color, Asian spice, truffles, tobacco, leather and caramel scents were easy to find. Elegant, opulent, soft and refined on the palate. This rhubarb flavored wine came with an intriguing sensation of cold steel. Slightly short in the finish with hints of red fruit and citrus, this was a very nice wine and treat because it will probably be the last time I experience a wine from 1925. 87 Pts

1928 Mouton sported a color as dark as many 60’s wines! Coffee, mint, forest floor, fresh herbs, tobacco, ash and black fruit said hello to your nose. In the mouth, you were treated to powerful sensations of steely black fruit. The wines personality remained powerful, brawny and austere. This is a masculine style of wine that my guess is, is a harbinger of the 1986. I liked the wine on the nose better than on the palate. 95 Pts

1929 Mouton is the real deal! In the glass, it resembles golden rubies. Truffles, cedar, tobacco, wet earth, soy, cigar store, fresh picked cherries, mint and smoke aromatics popped from the glass. This deep wine majors in decadence and minors in hedonism. Or is it the other way around? The texture melds opulence with lush, sensuous sensations that coats your palate with silk and a mélange of velvety ripe cherries… If 28 is the ancient version of 86, the 29 has to be the mature example of 82! I loved this decadent treat which got better in the glass. 97 Pts

1918 Ducru Beaucaillou showed a tea like color. Strawberry, rhubarb, butterscotch, earth and VA were in the nose. The light fruit offered a combination of sweet and sour flavors in the short finish. 80 Pts

1989 Rayas sported fresh, ripe, peppery raspberry and black cherry along with garrigue and soil perfumes with a tiny hint of VA. This concentrated, lush, intense, sauvage wine is filled with ripe, dark cherry and black raspberry flavors. 97 Pts

1978 Ponsot Clos de la Roche was a bit out of place in the endless sea of Bordeaux. At least for this this Bordeauxaphile. But I’m forced to admit, it did not suck! With its advanced color, this dark cherry and earthy wine offered a nice palate feel with black and red fruits. Obviously I do not taste that many Burgs, but this seemed a little rustic.

If the purpose of cellaring wine is to allow it to morph into something magical, that does not exist in its youth, that was found in abundance tonight. If the reason for sharing wine is to create lifelong memories, that was made even more clear. Drinking great wine is one thing. Enjoying them with fun, interesting, passionate and knowledgeable people brings it to an entirely new level. I cannot thank the Punisher and John Kapon enough for this once in a lifetime experience and memory.

Mr. Punisher, I’ve been a bad man. I admit it. I behaved poorly when I returned home. Mr. Punisher, if you agree my transgressions warrant further actions, (Which they do, even Santa is skipping us again!) I am so bad, I mentioned Santa is skipping us, even though I’m Jewish and he always skips us. I am ready for another night of similar punishment. I’m willing to accept my sentence.

@Edward Milstein

Jeff- it was a pleasure" punishing" you and John.We were remarkably lucky with the condition of everything we opened. Larry,Charles,Robert and John- Provenance has always been an issue,but at today’s prices its essential.These bottles were bought directly from a Chateau cellar in Bordeaux(around 06) and shipped back by air on a few separate occasions.Capsules had been redone,but most corks had been left intact and fell apart on opening.Alas-no pictures are possible since very little of any of the labels remained.(we did request all the bottles to be broken after).Buying bottles like this from any source is a shot in the dark.My advice is to fully inspect(see the corks and labels and fill yourself) and pay as little as possible.When I bought these,my estimate of whether they were drinkable was 50/50 at best-figuring the good vintages most likely would be drinkable ,but that most of the others would be at best interesting.These far exceeded my expectations.

From the same thread, I also understand that you were “Airplane” as well:

@Rob Rosania

PS - The Punisher became the nickname John used that night. However, for many years prior his nickname was (and still is) Airplane for a number of reasons. As for the question of doing a side by side comparison of “on cork” versus “recorked”, i have done it a couple times. The most vivid on memory was when i did a 21 Cheval which was recorked at Cheval (in the late 90’s if memory serves) aside of an ORIGINAL 21 Cheval AS WELL AS a Nicholas 21 Cheval which appeared to be recorked in the 70’s and unclear if it was re-corked prior to that since there was no unimpeachable record from the source.

Notwithstanding the myriad outcomes since the wine was over 80 at the time of the test and therefore this is just one man’s example and clearly NOT scientific given it was once my general comments are as follows:

1. The original corked bottle was MUCH more elegant and nuanced than the 21 which was recorked (and inevitably “topped off” by the characteristics) at Cheval and so indicated on the label. It was almost burgundy like and while it was clearly VERY old it was EXTREMELY profound and more so than the one from the Chateau recorking program.

2. The Nicholas wine was clearly “un touched” and identical to the original corked one (in this example - since anyone with substantial experience in Nicholas re-corked wines knows they can be sublime or somewhat less than that depending upon when they were done, the condition of the wine prior and IFF they were “topped off” how consistent is that wine to what it was “topping”) given the benefit of watching the 3 evolve for nearly 4 hours in the glasses. This is the famous 21 Cheval of which i wrote on this very board that i finally had a bordeaux with pitch. It was unquestionably superior to the original but again at 86, that’s NOT a pure science of recorking which is to be credited since it could have easily been opposite.

Nonetheless, the 21 recorked and not retouched (again by immediate comparison to an original) is the best bottle of bordeaux i have ever drank. It was FLAWLESS and while the original was ALMOST it’s equal, clearly the oxidation allowed by a cork more than double in age had an impact IN THIS EXAMPLE.

I have had the pleasure of drinking “correct” examples of 21 Cheval on more than 10 occassions and as many on this board know from thier experience I know the wine exceptionally well and made the comparison b/c I was intensely curious of how just that outcome may unfold. Nevertheless, by a wide margin the chateau re-corked 21 was at least 2 steps down from the original cork and a patch of the Nicholas 21.

Thats the red wine example I have which comes to mind. Clearly, Champagne which is recently disgorged, or “Collection”, Oenoteque… provides a complex comparison which is altogether more than I am prepared to articulate at this point.

Again, this is a bottle by bottle comparison as i have had some 45 Mouton FROM THE CHATEAU which lived together it’s whole life and one bottle was STUPIFYING (Drank with Airplane, Ray, Bruce and Mike at my home one night and i am certain that’s the best bottle they ever had as well) and a couple months later drank a bottle IMMEDIATELY next to it from the case and it was AWFUL. That’s old wine, and that’s part of the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. If everytime you did anything in life it was always perfect, especially with age and tremendous unknown, you could bet on one thing for certain - something wasn’t/isn’t what it seems.

[Rex_Northen]

I always enjoyed reading the tasting notes from their events, but never met any of the 12 Angry men in person, however, Ray T. went out of his way to help me with a couple of bottles of birth year wine for my wife - for which I’ll always be grateful.

[edwardmilstein]

Must have been a previous punisher,since I never got to drink with the 12 angry men.Don’t know who the previous one was though.Guess John isn’t that creative with his nicknames.

[WvanGorp]

@Brent C l a y t o n

I thought some of the ‘stories’ are also born of the auction night dinners and other Acker events which were pay to play but had epic wine flights, so not necessarily indicating the participants all had huge $$$ wine cellars? I don’t think you’ll find a shortage of praise for Ray here, he has certainly been kind and generous with many members here and drinking with him is always a pleasure. I don’t know any other confirmed/alleged members personally.

I second your comment about Ray; truly a gem of a guy.

[Ian_Dorin]

@WvanGorp

@Brent C l a y t o n

I thought some of the ‘stories’ are also born of the auction night dinners and other Acker events which were pay to play but had epic wine flights, so not necessarily indicating the participants all had huge $$$ wine cellars? I don’t think you’ll find a shortage of praise for Ray here, he has certainly been kind and generous with many members here and drinking with him is always a pleasure. I don’t know any other confirmed/alleged members personally.

I second your comment about Ray; truly a gem of a guy.

+2, as well as others that I’ve had meals with, true Angry Men or not (several of the Country Squires, as they were called, on one of those lists).

[Jurgen_Steinke]

All I can say is that many posts of Mr. Rosania and Mr. Tuppatsch on the old Parker board were pretty arrogant and unpleasant in tone and style. They seemed to be a show off kind of thing. I had some battles with them and I had the feeling that they thought I am not worth to discuss with because I have no Magnums of old DRC in my cellar to open with pizza.

A total contrast is Mr. Milstein. While he seems to have a very deep cellar and knowledge he is a true gentleman based on his contributions here and on other wine boards. I have a lot of respect for him. One thing is clear: I would love to share a bottle of wine with Mr. Milstein. I am not that interested to do the same with the other persons.

[mark_rudner]

i can only add that to be anywhere near the epicenter of an acker auction back in the day, meant you were likely to taste some incredible stuff courtesy of many of the above-named guys’ largesse.
it always seemed that everyone was contributing treasures and they flowed like wine

although i tasted more wines than i recall, some of them were 1928 palmer, la la’s going back to the beginning, all manner of old burgs, and a ton of champagnes including the best one i ever put to my lips, the 81 krug collection from mag courtesy of todd m.
all this for the contribution of a 90 dp.

although most definitely near the heights of conspicuous consumption, these were mostly really good guys having a good time in a manner very few could.

flame away.

[GregT]

No real opinion on any of the guys since the only one I’ve ever met was Ray T and he was most generous in pouring some older Champagne, something with which I am not particularly familiar. He seemed a decent guy who had some success in life and was able to pursue what he loved.

The others I know mostly by their internet personae, which may or may not do justice to a person - e.g., I’ve been called unpleasant by some people who’ve never met me in person.

Wine is enjoyable. Why on earth would anyone want to call themselves ANGRY in the context of wine? What kind if image is that supposed to be?

It’s like RP’s sig line - “Living well is the best revenge.”

Revenge against whom? For what?

In any event, if you create an image of yourself by loudly and frequently boasting about DRC and about your amazing palate and collection and acting like a douche at auctions, but then fall strangely silent when it’s revealed that much of that wonderful juice discussed was fake, that’s a lesson for all of us.

Labels matter.

[Gary_York]

Not saying that some of the “12” aren’t good guys. But surely at least a couple in the group deserved to be seriously flogged on the interweb. I guess you could say that Rudy did the world a favor. At least in regards to some of these gents.

[todd_waldmann]

I’ve never met any of the 12 Angry Men in person, though I will say that Ray was extremely generous & reasonable when he & I exchanged a series of PMs after I was pilloried by the delightful human being that is Rob Rosania on the “other board” after having commented on one of the now-infamous nights at Cru posted on by Rudy K. himself. I believe the equally “lovely” Gil Lempert-Schwartz was involved in that evening & that thread as well. Is he one of the 12 Angry Men?

[GregT]

I think Rudy did the world a huge favor.

Not that I like to see innocent people get screwed, but first, he exposed so many people as bullshit artists rather than “experts”, and second, he scored a direct hit on the idea of wine as a Veblen good.

[Robert_Dentice]

My favorite 12 Angry Men moment that I can talk about was seeing one of them Puking out DRC in the bathroom of Veritas.

[Gary_York]

Some of those guys are far from innocent. At least one in particular.

[mark_rudner]

@Robert Dentice

My favorite 12 Angry Men moment that I can talk about was seeing one of them Puking out DRC in the bathroom of Veritas.

how about the things you can’t talk about

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

@Bill Tex Landreth

Another named here: Gang of Pour - Brad Baker's Tasting Notes - 12 Angry Men

The Hillbilly, and far too rational to blow as much as a nickel on anything that Rudy had to sell. I would not put vying with Parker to corner the global market on Flannery rib-caps past him, though!