I think part of it is just that they’ve been around long enough for lots of people to have had a chance to try them and know how good they are.
There are great age-worthy wines like this all over the world. I love Ridge Geyserville and Lytton Springs and buy them, but overall is California Zin a better value than Taurasi, Produttori del Barbasesco, Bandols from producers like Tempier, Pradeaux and Pibarnon, Lopez de Heredia or other Top Riojas, wines from certain producers from Sicily, Chinon, Bourgeil, the Jura, etc., etc., etc.? Only if stick your head in the ground and think the only alternatives in the world are Zinfandel and Napa Cabernet.
More thread drift but this is a concept that I find fascinating and I have seen it applied in other places as well. My wife makes jewelry and has had to accept that in order to sell some things she makes she needs to raise the price. This seems counterintuitive but it seems to work or I guess I should say it has worked for her in the past as well as some other jewelers that we know.
I would love to understand why this happens. I think that for many people, they are not comfortable judging quality so they assume price represents quality. Therefore if they want quality they are prepared to pay more and if it isn’t priced that way then they assume something must be wrong with it but they just don’t know what it is yet. Again, I assume that they fear that by buying the item that they think is priced too low that they will have buyers remorse later when whatever short coming is finally discovered.
Brian, you want to read “Thinking: Fast and Slow.” 
Maybe a bit of thread drift but hope this is useful. Cultural costs for growing old vine Zinfandel are certainly lower than farming other varies with modern techniques. Generally no wires to move or maintain, this also makes pruning MUCH cheaper and faster. Picking is generally cheaper as the fruit is easier to get to and clusters are larger than Pinot. Zin is also less susceptible to powdery mildew and requires less preventive sprays. Yes organic weed control is more speedy than conventional farming, but it’s the same for all vines. Of course it’s all about the yields. If you can squeeze out 2 tons/acre from old vines your probably pretty happy.
The last thing I’ll say is labor costs will continue to go up big time. Immigration reform seems a long way off and not headed in a favorable direction. You can pick Cabernet with a machine (and do it very well) where there’s no chance with old vine Zin. I’d even guess that there are numerous high priced Cabernet wines harvested by machine now.
No doubt there are great age-worthy value wines around the world like the ones you listed, but do you actively buy all of them? The reason I was praising Ridge is because I buy consistently buy them. I just got a few cases of wine from Cornas, Champagne, and Cote Rotie at just a slightly higher price than Ridge and those wines are easily better, but I don’t specifically buy them year after year.
That escalated quickly. I don’t see people claiming Zin is a ‘better’ value than all of those wines. Only that it often does represent value much the same way the areas you mention do. Not all Zin represents value anymore than all of the wines from the areas you mention do.
I am sorry. I meant to respond to the OP, not to your post. I do think that most of Ridge wines (and not just zins) represent excellent value. Almost half the California wines I have in my cellar and all of the Zins in my cellar come from Ridge. Many other California Zins are too hot, not that good and do not represent good values, IMHO.
I agree. In all areas of the world of wine, you have to learn the producers. For me, and my tastes and what I have tasted, outside of Ridge and a few others, I don’t think Zinfandel represents that great of a value.
User avatar
John Morris
Subscriber
Posts: 13946
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:09 pm
Location: New York City
Zinfandel pricing vs. other varietals
Post #34 Unread postby John Morris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:30 pm
Mel Knox wrote:
A question that keeps haunting me is this: cabernets are now being made in a manner completely different from the way they were 25 years ago: riper fruit, better integrated and softer tannins…will these wines age the way those legends of the '60s and '70s did?? Is there a reason to age them more than ten years?? What will they develop into?? So many cabs are fruity like zins…no more weedy stemmy herbaceousness…no more hard tannins that obliged you to age the wine.
John Morris wrote:
That may be the answer to the original question. People who want big, unctuous, slug-em-back, buckets-of-fruit, blackberry/raspberry, soft-tannined wines* for $100 are finding that in cabernet these days. It’s hard for $35 zin to compete with $100 cabernet that tastes the same.
![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
- Up to this point, this is a category I love.
John, Have you been talking to Thor Veblen again?? I do think that if a wine’s basic drawing card is its fruitiness, then that wine’s value drops every day you leave it in your cellar. And indeed, better to drink cru beaujolais than cru cab.
My point was that I don’t know where these new agey wines are going.
I opened a bottle of 2012 Phelan Segur the other day, as Jancis rated it with the same score as 2012 Lafite, which costs around 11 bottles of the Phelan Segur. It was a big rich wine, unimaginable 30 years ago, lots of fruit, quite drinkable with no unpleasant tannins…why wait and what will happen if you do.It used to be that St Estephe took ten plus years to come around.
Howard may be hitting the nail on the head in that there are many unenjoyable zins. But the ones that are enjoyable, Fred Scherrer’s to name one, are well worth the money.
And one more point: shutting yourself off to zin is like just limiting your fruit intake to apples, oranges and strawberries. Raspberries and blackberries are also tasty.
Drank another bottle of the 2012 PS…In another ten years or so it will be fantastic. The guy who made it made Pontet Canet from around 1987 until around 2003…great winemaker, now retired.
And one more point: shutting yourself off to zin is like just limiting your fruit intake to apples, oranges and strawberries. Raspberries and blackberries are also tasty.
Yes!
It’s why I never understood the idea of someone’s palate “evolving” or “maturing” or whatever.
I liked chocolate cake when I was a kid. I spent a lot of time traveling in Europe hunting out chocolate truffles. Then I encountered mole. And then I encountered white truffles. I still like chocolate cake, but enjoy many more types of chocolate confections, as well as many more things.
Why not allow yourself to enjoy many things, continually adding more? If you’ve only had Zin, that’s what you know. But once you find other wines, it doesn’t mean you have to give it up - you just have a bigger selection.
What do you pair with those? Personally, I go for 4WD and a trailer hitch.
I guess this one is out of the question then eh?
[resizeableimage=465,620]https://image.ibb.co/k0882H/2132_E2_D7_84_B6_46_E8_A815_D9_FDAE14_B3_A5.jpg[/resizeableimage]
![https://image.ibb.co/k0882H/2132_E2_D7_84_B6_46_E8_A815_D9_FDAE14_B3_A5.jpg[/resizeableimage]](https://image.ibb.co/k0882H/2132_E2_D7_84_B6_46_E8_A815_D9_FDAE14_B3_A5.jpg%5B/resizeableimage%5D){kind=link}
Sounds perfect if you like some Zinfandel with your alcohol.
John,
You make me sorry I sold my Toyota Tacoma. I did once drive it to the Hitching Post.
Brian,
I know this vineyard well as we have supplied both the MArtinellis and Williams Selyem with barrels for the wine. Burt W opened a bottle of it at a party last May. Fantastic. Indeed my earlier point is that I have enjoyed many older Zins that have developed wonderfully. There is more than fruit in many zins.
You do touch on a point that reminds me of the Silicon Valley saying, It s not a bug, it s a feature.
The fact that Zin comes in many styles is both a wonderful thing and a point of confusion. When I order this wine will it be more powerful than a diesel locomotive or relatively restrained?? At one point Zin producers were considering a kind of thermometer, like on chile sauce, indicating the power of the wine.
I’ve had many old wines from Jackass, I understand how they can hold up if made properly. The ‘83 Hacienda Del Rio, @ 30+ years of age, may be the best aged Zinfandel I have ever drank and it came in at 14.3. 17.5% alcohol in a table wine is an abomination and in 2025 that ‘95 Martinelli is not going to be balanced and beautiful like Burt and Ed’s HDR was.
Two mentions of T Veblen in the same thread.
Maybe the answer for Zin is to have Mike Officer triple his prices. Morgan can go up 5%.
Well, everyone seems to be speaking from the economic aspect, when I actually favor Greg’s angle.