The devil’s advocate would like to ask a serious question: Are Francisco de Goya, Pablo Picasso, and Édouard Manet sexist because they painted nude women? They were expressing beauty via canvas. To a man, a beautiful woman is nature’s best artwork. The problem is many men simply can’t express themselves as fluently or eloquently as they’d like, and often come off chauvinistic because they’re not as classy or educated.
Well, she should stay away from romance languages where pretty much EVERYTHING is masculine or feminine. Le vin…masculine. Le vigneron…masculine. La vigneronne…feminine. I can’t for the life of me remember the gender of most French words. The English language is impressively gender neutral in comparison…if not the English speakers. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
RT
Why masculine vs. feminine? Why not assertive vs. subtle? Aggressive vs. gentle? Forward vs. reserved? There are many much clearer ways to describe the dichotomy I think we are talking about in the case of wine. In reality all you’re doing when you use masculine or feminine as descriptors is literally reinforcing a stereotype.
Where’s the “Like” button when you need it?
It is impossible to be completely androgynous. As Richard points out, even words have gender in other languages.
Stereotypes exist because there’s a lot of truth to them. There’s no harm in calling a wine masculine or feminine unless you read too much into those descriptors and are looking to get offended by them.
I do, too frequently.
Just adding my voice to the male contingent who sees, and finds unfortunate, a fair bit of this stuff. It’s not just that women are oversensitive and, you know, cray cray imagining all this.
I’m guessin’ the extent to which men are sensitive and sympathetic to this is largely a function of social setting. If you’re a fish, you probably don’t take much notice of the water around you.
I’m not offended, I’m just explaining that it’s an unnecessary abstraction and that the same or better information could be conveyed without reinforcing a stereotype. If you really really feel so strongly that you must describe something that way, I don’t care one bit. Other people might. I’m just letting you know what your words mean and how they can be interpreted.
Really almost any discussion of the nude in Western art since John Berger’s Ways of Seeing will connect it to the male gaze. And even a jot of knowledge about Picasso would persuade you of his really pretty impressive misogyny. I don’t know anything about Goya. Manet’s Olympia is one of the great exceptions to the list as the subject stares directly and quite defiantly at the (presumed) male viewer–something of a rarity in paintings of the nude to say the least. So of course there were physical threats to the painting and it had to be hung out of reach.
Yes, but in French at least, the word for vagina is masculine and the one for fatherland is feminine. Gender and sex once meant different things. When we assign sex to wine, we are less odd and more stereotypical in our assignments. As I once said, if wine were really feminine, my wife would be a lesbian.
Well said, Sarah. I agree with everything you wrote.
+10 I do think this part is at least a language issue. But there are also implications in the words we use, sometimes intended, sometimes not.
It is curious to me that the same line about masculine and feminine as descriptors in that post made me pause, think, and reflect upon how i talk about wine (and other things) and how that may affect others – and how it may contribute to what is largely a systemic and institutional problem – led others to stop reading, stop thinking, stop engaging.
I do not consider myself sexist, but know that I operate in, and was raised in, a sexist society. I find it impossible to believe that it has not affected me. I don’t think it is fair to demand that I immediately stop being sexist (or saying sexist things). I do think it is fair to ask me to be reflective about what I do and how it might be, perhaps is, sexist.
I really appreciated the link to the blog post. I am sure I don’t agree with all of it (like many here perhaps, I have not finished reading it), but it makes me pause and reflect – which has to be a good thing.
Count me as someone in favor of describing wines as virile or feminine.
Very usueful terms understood by most wine lovers and wine professionals.
I once asked the late Paul Pontalier of Château Margaux “It is said that Margaux is the most feminine of wines. Is that true and if so, how so?”. He gave a wondrously learned, philosophical, humorous explanation in exquisite English and I very much regret that I did not record it.
If I drink a bug, gutsy, in-your-face Châteauneuf-du-Pape and describe it as virile, that’s a very apt term too.
There’s a dividing line between referring to the diferences between the sexes and demeaning the opposite sex. I have no trouble with not crossing that line, and I think most people don’t either.
Best regards,
Alex R.
Best regards,
Alex R.
My understanding…and I’m already over my head…is that “linguistic relativity” supports the premise that the perception of things is affected by grammatical genders. For example, a French speaker tends to describe gendered “things” with adjectives that are more masculine or feminine, based on the seemingly arbitrary gender of the word for the “thing”. Works the same for men and women for objects that are masculine or feminine. Naturally it gets more complicated when there are both masculine and feminine words for the same thing.
Wine has been associated with “sex” since the beginning (not that I know of any Armenian/Georgian rock carvings denoting sex and wine). Dionysus, Bacchus, baccahanlia, etc.
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One can try to extricate sex and gender from wine, but it’ll be a tough row to hoe. There’s a happy place somewhere (not that I know where it is!) for tasteful wine descriptors balancing political correctness and offensive sexism.
RT
Gender once meant–as an extension of linguistic gender, which is frequently quite arbitrary in individual examples–all elements that a culture attaches to sex. Sex meant merely the biological differences–and nothing but those–between males and females: primary and secondary sexual characteristics and the chromosomal differences underlying them. The point was to question most of our sexual assignments of non-biological elements–including massively psychological and cultural stereotypes–as gendered, thus having a cultural rather than biological basis. In your example above, both the gender of the words and the masculine and feminine characteristics assigned to the words as an explanation of gender (and, really, how does this begin to explain the examples of French I cited) are matters of gender and not sex.
I wlll immediately stipulate that some research does indicate some sexual differences that go beyond the merely physiological. In the case that one finds such research persuasive, one would also call those differences sexual.
This distinction seems to be gone both from feminism and from the larger cultural discourse (hence descriptions of the recent laws telling us which bathrooms to use as requiring that we use the bathrooms of our birth genders–a very strange phrase to my ears). One sees the point of its loss, trivially it is true, in the way this discussion can’t keep the distinction straight.
In reference to your original question, this is a definitely male dominated forum, but I’ve always been a collector of something and have participated on boards about collecting which were women dominated. I like wine, but don’t "collect’ it as such. The difference to me is the items I “collect” will get used, but will still be there. Once I “use” a bottle of wine, it’s gone, unlike a pair of shoes or a bag that can last many, many years and get used often. Just visit other “collecting” forums and you’ll find collectors are no different than they are here. Collecting is the meaning of obsession! (Berkin bags anyone?! $10-60k a pop and a wait list that tops all wait lists!)
the sexism is rampant and insidious, > on top of what Jason calls the “jocular” tone (I would use the word “puerile” in many cases - sorry, guys). I can point to numerous instances of open condescension I’ve experienced from people on this and other boards who assume that, since I’m a woman, I must be a beginner, despite some fairly obvious evidence to the contrary. It seems to be reflexive. I don’t find it offensive most of the time - > I work in finance, so I’m accustomed to institutionalized and tacitly condoned sexism. It isn’t exactly welcoming to women, though> .
I’m sorry , but I frequently read this forum and sometimes participate but haven’t seen any of that here(maybe it’s happening where I’m not looking)…I thought that there were laws passed many years ago to prevent that in the workplace.
Maybe you’re just not as sensitivite/aware as some others are. There certainly are sexist comments here and, as someone noted, a couple repeat offenders.
And while laws may prohibit certain behaviors in the workplace, that doesn’t mean they don’t happen.
I’ve seen comments I thought were crass , but not sexist. I just frequent this board (wine talk) so I’m unaware of what might occur elsewhere.
Suuuure. Just like there is this huge rape culture in Western society.
So this subject comes up in some fashion about every year, I would guess. So, to the original post/question, Alex Rychlewski wrote:
"On the other hand, collecting wine and obsessing about it (like I do) seem to be very much a guy thing.
I wonder why so few women post here?"
Based on my professional experience (grower/owner/producer of Napa Cabernet), from witnessing my customer base, the level of interest and involvement in wine AT THIS LEVEL as here, on WB, is very much a guy thing. I am talking about people who search out, purchase, drink and discuss wine in the $70-$135/bottle category. My customers who are female are probably 5% - maybe that’s high - of the total.
My personal (unprofessional) take on this is that men are more indulgent in their interests. I get this idea from spending time with my customers in person and online via email. And by talking with the women who DO direct their family’s wine purchases, and also from the women who partner with the male purchasers. And I am going to generalize on my personal take on things and say that I believe women are multi-tasking more frequently and more effectively than men. Leaving men more “able,” if you will, to take on the wine-collecting hobby than women. Again, my take on it.
Now for me as a woman…and this is me in my “mature years,” …I appreciate being female more than ever in my life. And I value and respect what I perceive as the differences between the genders. We will never think like each other. But I think if one listens to what the other appreciates and desires, perhaps some of the unhappiness between the genders is mitigated. Someone on this board referred to me as “a lady,” and I believe that was sincere; it is a tag that pleases me.
As an aside, I frequently refer to some of my vintages as “feminine,” a good example being my 2009. Floral, soft, light on its feet. I also refer to some as being “more masculine,” and sometimes I use the word “robust,” (as in 2010, 2012). More earthy, heavier, muscular. Nothing sexual about it, but descriptors I feel comfortable with because everyone at the table is, well, either male or female gender, masculine or feminine. Perhaps male and female is more accurate, with feminine and masculine having social connotations, but I digress…
I do think there are people on here who would like everyone to “grow thicker skin.” To me, that’s a clue right there. The speaker knows what they are saying is offensive, and simply wants everyone to accept it because for some reason, it makes him feel good to talk that way.
I won’t repeat some of the phrases that are used here that are sexual in nature, and that demean women. I have been known to call people out online and explain about that, and also PM and ask them to reconsider their post.
For those who do not know, that is Mr. Rob Gronkowski (better known as “Gronk,”) in my avatar. He is one of the finest tight ends in football, who just happens to play for my favorite team, the (Boston) New England Patriots.