The Winekeeper keeps bottles upright, which might be a solution for the sediment problem in older bottles. Does the argon injection still stir up the sediment?
Asked and answered: https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2136672#p2136672. 
For better or worse to readers, I am mentally engaged/distracted with this thread . . .
Can this adjustable “Botto” container idea be modified to work with liquid?
P.S. Should we give George Forman and his friends a call for some help?
I can’t recall the name of it but I’ve seen info on a container for wine that does something similar. You had to decant your wine into it and it’s plastic, so that’s two strikes right there.
Thanks. I trust you will forgive me for forgetting an exchange three years ago. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Not sure we will forgive, but we will forget.
-Al
Thank you to those who addressed my question regarding argon forming a preservation layer. So in order for any oxygen replacement system to work, that alternative gas (e.g., argon) would have to completely fill the empty space in the bottle, completely displacing the oxygen? How would you know when sufficient argon has been injected? Also, let’s say you displaced 1/2 the oxygen in the bottle, would that help slow oxidation of the wine? Or would the rate of oxygen interacting with the wine still remain constant except that there is less oxygen to come in contact with the wine?
Anyway, very unscientifically, the argon I have been using from my ArT brand cannisters seems to work but then it is only to preserve the wine until the next day. I have no idea how effective it is for longer periods.
Why are other solutions still being discussed. ![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
I’m a 375ml-in-the-fridge guy, but I can see the appeal of a device that allows you to draw a glass without consuming a half bottle.
I have something that is similar to that idea - the Eto wine preservation decanter. If I only want a glass of wine, I use my Coravin. For more than that, I use the Eto. It works surprisingly well.
Gasses actually are influenced by a gravitational field, so the molecular composition of a mixture at different points will vary based on their relative atomic weights. One can readily see this in Earth’s heterosphere, >100 km above the earths surface, whereas below this point turbulent mixing predominates over molecular diffusion. However, this it is not something that is detectable on the scale of the dead space in a wine bottle, which can be treated as a evenly distributed mixture of gasses.
There was a thread on Eto recently.
Kickstarter:
I hadn’t seen this previously, but it’s disappointing, as I figured that was the solution. Why does it seem to work so well? I’ve NOT pumped or put argon in bottles and they definitely seem to degrade much, much faster than if I treat the bottles.
What about systems like ZOS or Repour, that eliminate the oxygen (by absorbing it) in the closed bottle?
Al’s not saying that Argon won’t protect wine (simply by displacing the air in the empty part of the bottle). He’s saying that you can’t just squirt a little argon in, and think that it will settle at the bottom of the empty bottle space (and thus be the only gas in contact with the wine surface). You can use argon (or any other non-reactive gas, which is likely cheaper), but you have to put in enough to know you’ve displaced all the original air.
For the canisters (like ArT), you just have to inject “enough” argon. You of course don’t really know when enough is enough, and it won’t be perfect regardless. So, it slows oxidation, extends the life a bit, but is still a relatively short-term solution.
With Coravin, there’s no way (provided it’s used correctly) for air/oxygen to get into the bottle at all. Injecting argon increases pressure inside the bottle, then the pressure differential allows wine to flow out. Wine stops flowing when pressure equalizes. This is far more foolproof, and enables much longer storage. Similarly to what some others have mentioned, I typically have 6-8 bottles “accessed” at one time, letting me pick different wines from day to day, or before/during dinner, or pour a vertical of something even when it’s only my wife and I, then repeat a few weeks later, etc. Super, super useful.
With respect to Todd’s Winesave, based on the following documents, it would probably be advantageous to slow the flow rate, and to ensure that a sufficient volume of argon is introduced (which could be estimate by timing how long it takes to release a specific volume of gas into water-filled, inverted graduated cylinder or other container held upside down under water).
“…reducing the oxygen level from atmospheric levels of about 20% to less than 1% requires about three and one-quarter volume changes in the flushed vessel.”
“There are 3 steps recommended to create a protective inert gas blanket. The first step is maintaining purity by avoiding turbulence. When using carbon dioxide or argon to create a successful blanket, it is important to understand that the gases readily mix with each other when moved. When attempting to purge headspaces with inert gas, the gas’s flow rate as it exits the tubing acts as the determining factor in the purity of the final volume of gas. Higher flow rates lead to the creation of a churning effect that causes the oxygen-containing ambient air to mix in with the inert gas. If this occurs, the inert gas’ ability to protect the wine is diminished due its decreased purity. It is necessary to ensure that the delivery method attempts to avoid turbulence as much as possible in order to have a pure layer of inert gas that is lacking oxygen. The ideal flow rate needed to accomplish this is generally the lowest setting on you gas regulator. Usually, this means between 1-5 PSI, depending on the tubing size.
The second step to creating a protective inert gas blanket is to reach the highest volume of gas that can be delivered while still maintaining the low flow-rate necessary to avoid creating turbulence and thus mixing the gas with the air we are attempting to eliminate. While any size tubing can utilized in the delivery of an effective inert gas blanket, the amount of time it requires will increase as the delivery tubing diameter decreases. If you want to hasten the process of purging without compromising the gentle flow necessary to creating a successful blanket, the diameter of the output tubing should be expanded. One way to easily do this is to attach a small length of a larger diameter tube onto the existing gas line on your regulator.
The third and final step to effectively creating an inert gas blanket is to have the gas flow parallel to the surface of the wine, or laminar, instead of aiming the flow of gas directly at the surface. This leads to the inert gas being less likely to mix with the surrounding air when being delivered because it will not bounce off the surface of the liquid. An effective and easy way to do so is to attach a diverter at the end of the gas tubing.”
Kevin, it’s interesting that they go to that level of detail in helping people use their product. I think some of the confusion arises because they use the phrase “inert gas blanket” several times. That’s a misnomer, as Al originally pointed out. Their discussion is all about displacing all the air in the bottle in the most efficient way (i.e., by pushing out that air with as little turbulence as possible from the incoming argon, to minimize mixing). But there is no “gas blanket”, it’s just a reduction of O2 by whatever volume of argon you can pump in without losing some as it mixes with air and gets pushed out.
Well, in theory, if you do it perfectly or almost perfectly, there really will be a “gas blanket” that is almost 100% inert gas. In the lab, we have a rule of thumb about how many flushes of water we have to give a beaker before the original material it contained is essentially no longer there (7). The same principle applies here: if you flush long enough, there will essentially be no oxygen left. Which is less than what was in the dead space before you opened the bottle, which is something to think about, since there is something called Henry’s Law (which also has implications for Repour):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry’s_law
But presumable Todd et al are not flushing nearly that much.
When I developed the Argon cylinder product I used used to sell I did a displacement study in which I injected Argon into plastic bags while counting how many ‘seconds’ I’d injected for. I then submerged the bags in a measured water container filled to the brim and took note of how much water was displaced by bags filled to different time counts. I provided customers with an approximate ‘count’ for a bottle 3/4 full, 1/2 full, etc…
I’m not sure how many people paid attention, and then Coravin came along and I was done because my system was really just a sophisticated version of Private Preserve. But… from what I learned doing all that, I’ve always wondered how much actual preservation was accomplished if people didn’t really know how much of the empty space was being filled with these gas systems.
The Coravin seems to be pretty good but I’ve never seen instructions on how long to hold down the lever, so I’m not sure with it either.
As an aside, does anyone know how common it is for professional wineries to fill the dead space with inert gas when they bottle? Historically, this obviously couldn’t be done, but it is done now at least some of the time. I’m just wondering how prevalent this practice is in the industry.
One could speculate that a wine bottled under inert gas would behave differently than one that wasn’t when it was opened and a wine preservation system was subsequently employed.