Wine list question for the Burgundy gurus

WINE TALK
21

It is always interesting and lots of fun of doing mini-veridical tasting of the same version of wine from the same producer.

I love to do it as often as possible. We normally end up by concluding… I prefer the 1995 to the 1993; but at the end it really come down to : when to open the bottle according to your own personal preference.

What I am trying to say is : red from vintage 1993 definitely needs more bottle age than red from vintage 1994; but to have a definite conclusion between 1993 and 1995, isn’t it really come down to your own personal choice pileon …and also when the bottles were opened.

Cheers !!

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… [worship.gif] [winner.gif]

23

I had missed that the prices are “similar-ish”.

With that in mind the Cros P. is a no brainer, IMO

You’ll get to see a 20 year old version of one of the most reknowned wines in Burgundy. Period. Worth the price of admission, per se. No further analysis needed given the cost differential.

I like 1995 (and 1996) very much…'95 is barely into adulthood, IMO…I wish I had more. I have had this wine and it was very nice, too.

Having said that…I do feel compelled to opine that I consider CP overpriced for what it is; I think even in the Rouget/Jayer stable, their BM is a better value and nearly as good. I think the BM is one of Burgundy’s greatest (and my favorite) 1er crus for pinot noir.

FWIW, in summer 1996, I went up to the BM with a winemaker. It is a great view of Vosne and beyond as it is way high up…and looks down on neighbors the CP (and brulees). One thing I remember is seeing a whole patch of the vineyard unplanted in the BM. The man told me it was Leroy’s…and that he (and others) felt that Lalou…misleadingly claimed super low yields there and other places…as “low yields” usually mean fruit per plant or hectare of planted vines…and she always included fallow land (which people do before replanting to re-nourish the vineyard) in her “yields”. Not a dig at her by me; I don’t buy Leroy and never have (nor DRC) as I think they are not good QPR when I’ve had them, given their enormous premiums. But, a memory of something I had never thought about before…“low yields” and what that can mean.

Report back.
Is the Leroy BM really in the same range as CP? I find that hard to believe…even with Leroy’s premiums for the name on the label.

If you care to tell us the prices…on the list…that would be interesting.

24

I thought you wrote once that you had never had a DRC or Leroy wine. Curious as to which you’ve had to reach the conclusion that they weren’t worth the price.

25

Very good observation and comments - Alan !!

26

Never wrote that-- it’s not true. I’ve had many Leroy wines (Maison) over the years and some DRC…esp. the Echezaux (which I thought was in the same league as several others at much less cost).

In the '80s and '90s, a good acquaintance was the rep in the PA/NJ area for Leroy (and Ridge, which I loaded up on in that period; love their zins!!!) and I was visibly heading a group to end the State Store system in PA. One Xmas, he gifted me a mixed case of Leroy wines. I liked them all…but thought the prices ridiculous. (And, I did buy some Bourgognes white and red in a couple of later vintages, from him, at wholesale.) And, he invited me to several tastings of them, too…

I also led the Burgundy (and Chablis and Alsace) tastings (and “courses”) in that era, through the early '00s at what was the “best” local wine school (it now preps for WSET only). And, I went to many many walk arounds…where DRC was frequently served. (I now realize the bottles probably needed aeration). I still remember one Richebourg…it was very nice.

Good wines, for sure…but…the cost was often double others’ examples of the same wines. So I made up my mind a long time ago…to opt for QPR…in my purchases. (And, to be clear, whether good or bad values, the prices are out of my range of comfort at any rate. And, since the same guys were selling Ampeau…that satisfied my thirst for older wines at lower cost.)

Hard to be more specific…as, when price was factored in…i almost never thought they were “worth the price”…at least to me. (My experience with the DRC monopoles is , admittedly, quite limited.)

But, I’m happy to be convinced…though almost nobody I know has ever bogught these wines. I think I travel in different circles from many who post here.

QPR (as I view it) has always factored into my enjoyment of particular wines…and my evaluation, too. Certain names on the labels almost never add to that for me…in fact, they subtract in that regard. (And, my purchases have been pretty focused…I focused on a group of say 20 Burgundy producers that I found hands on owners…and , for me, good QPR, and bought the same people’s wines (more or less) most years from 1985-2005, so there are lots of peoples’ wines I’ve never purchased…many even after visiting them once or twice.)

27

Stuart…hmm - I remember back in Squire Board that you wrote what Alan said regarding DRC due to its price. My memory is not that good now…but I am surprise to learn ( for the first time ) that you had many DRC… [whistle.gif]

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Guess I misunderstood what you had said before in that you did not buy DRC wines but you did drink some… [cheers.gif]

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How can we get Stuart’s screen name changed to Stuart (BeauneHead) Niemtzow to reflect his love affair with parentheses?

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Good wines, for sure...but..the cost was often double others' examples of the same wines. So I made up my mind a long time ago....to opt for QPR...in my purchases. (And, to be clear, whether good or bad values, the prices are out of my range of comfort at any rate. And, since the same guys were selling Ampeau...that satisfied my thirst for older wines at lower cost.)

Hard to be more specific...as, when price was factored in....i almost never thought they were "worth the price"....at least to me. (My experience with the DRC monopoles is , admittedly, quite limited.)

But, I'm happy to be convinced....though almost nobody I know has ever bogught these wines. I think I travel in different circles from many who post here.

QPR (as I view it) has always factored into my enjoyment of particular wines..and my evaluation, too. Certain names on the labels almost never add to that for me...in fact, they subtract in that regard. (And, my purchases have been pretty focused...I focused on a group of say 20 Burgundy producers that I found hands on owners....and , for me, good QPR, and bought the same people's wines (more or less) most years from 1985-2005, so there are lots of peoples' wines I've never purchased...many even after visiting them once or twice.)

Agree …and speaking like a Burgundy guru.

But I would like to add …to arrive at the conclusion of what you said…one needs to travel that journey [cheers.gif]

31

So I made up my mind a long time ago…to opt for QPR…in my purchases.

…the prices are out of my range of comfort at any rate.

QPR (as I view it) has always factored into my enjoyment of particular wines…and my evaluation, too.

I feel for you, Stuart. It’s a little sad that money would affect your enjoyment and evaluation of a wine, even if you didn’t pay for it. Sounds a little like guilt over the expense but what do I know?

32

Dennis…do you ever have any comments to make on the subject of the thread at hand…rather than about me and my posts.

I feel a little like I’m being stalked by your posts.

33

Peter…at some point, hopefully early on in every journey…you arrive at “conclusions” without continuing on a pointless journey. I think that’s what life is about, in fact…not wasting your time on things that are pointless or unimportant to one. Leroy/DRC…and their ilk of trophy labels…is of little interest to me. I figured that out a very long time ago…and it enabled me to have a great journey through Burgundy and its diversity and various levels of “trophiness” from top to bottom.

What others choose to do is up to them. There are too many roads to waste the gas …and time on what is not important to one.

When I hit a fork in the road , I take it. [wink.gif]

Someday I’ll have a whole placesetting.

34

You just happen to comment in threads I read, and it seems all of your recent posts have been deserving of rebuttal. It ain’t just me either. Trust me, I’m not seeking you out because it isn’t worth the effort. You just happen to fall right in the cross hairs and your contrarian posts supply the fodder for the cannon.

EDIT: I feel kinda dumb now - I forgot how easy a feature here makes it to handle this exact situation!

35

Use it…the threads will be improved and more on target.

I have to say…in addition to feeling stalked, I almost never understand what you’re even saying…which makes it a creepier experience for me.

“Rebuttal” is of points…not people.

Do you have any ideas of your own to add to the mix?

36

Thanks again everyone for the advice. I went ahead with the Rouget which was $500 by the way. It was very good though I don’t know if I’d call it $500 good. Very detailed, precise wine. The acidity did stick out a bit. Probably the only time I’ll try Cros Parantoux from any producer so I’m happy to have had the experience.

For those who are interested, the restaurant is Left Bank in Vail. They have a bunch of good back vintage gems to scout out. You can’t take bottles away so don’t get any ideas about cleaning the place out.

37

Thanks for reporting back.

Only Rouget and Meo-Camuzet have holdings/make wine from this vineyard…which was cleared after WWII and farmed only by Henri Jayer when he was active. (Jayer owned some; Meo owned some…and Jayer’s portion is now made by Rouget.

The amazing thing is that price, which is well out of my range, is much cheaper than that wine shows up on Wine Searcher for…so…you got a “good” value in that sense…

38

Yes a big reach for me but at 1/3 retail, you gotta take your shots. As an aside I was remarking to my wife that I’ve had a chance now to taste some of the top end of Napa cabernet (e.g. Bond, Schrader) and one or two shots at the high end of burgundy (like this Rouget) and in both of those cases I feel like I don’t really miss/need that top end and am perfectly happy with stuff at 1/4th the price. BUT the very top end of Barolo is a super special thing and I still crave / will save up for Giacosa red labels and such.

39

They do have some gems there! And it’s the type of restaurant where you often find them – very old school French, older crowd, been around for a while, set in its ways… Reminds me of the fancy French place at the Broadmoor which used to (and may still) have killer back-vintage deals.

40

This is your own, personal QPR. To me, that was a huge factor in my buying (I’ve stopped buying) and now enjoying the fruits of all the years of visiting and buying wineries in France. I know what makes me “perfectly happy” for the most part…and that requires not paying a premium for the writing on the label in most cases. (So, I’ve never bought DRC or any more than a few Leroys in my life.) I have visited Rouget many times and though I’ve bought eh Cros P, I think the Beaux Monts there is a much better QPR (even if the Cros P might be a better financial investment). For me, it’s an equivalent sensual pleasure…and with the cost being so much less…an overall QPR “no brainer”. (And, I find it difficult to drink some of the “trophy” wines I have , as I have seen how much they could bring and have appreciated…which is kind of perverse, as I had to persuade the makers to sell them to me in the first place.) That’s Burgundy…but I usually eschew wines in Piemonte, too, that have a large premium for what’s on the label, though I like them and think they can be ok QPR…even if Giacosa/Gaja are somewhat like DRC./Leroy in my experience re: QPR. (But, that experience is limited).

QPR is QPR: subjective and variable. But, even if you’re a billionaire, IMO, QPR is the same…you just probably don’t care as much…or have as much of a problem as I do with paying a huge premium for a prestigious producer’s name on the label…or, more likely, for having certain importers’ (US) names on the importers strips…like Lynch and Rosenthal…and probably others. QPR, like the length of the finish on a wine can be a factor…that adds to or subtracts from an experience. And, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that criterion being considered in the mix of pleasure.

But…I can’t imagine ever spending $500 or near that on a bottle of wine…unless sharing it to taste with someone who is that interested.