One thing I’ve been thinking about: I’m no expert on Gen Z (born in 1983, I think I’m about the oldest millennial there is)—but as far as I can tell authenticity and artisan products are highly valued by a lot of Gen Z types. And wine is better at authenticity than anything. With wine you are getting a real artisan product from a specific plot of land, from a specific vintage and grape, that often has been farmed by the same family for generations. You can visit the land and everything. This could be marketed better.
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It also might be that the natural wines, good, funky, or beyond funky are just way more interesting than the btg list at most bars/restaurants that serve the standard.
My thoughts on natural wines are pretty well documented here, but I’d go drink wine at a natural wine bar to see what I could find over the standard lame btg lists at many restaurants.
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In my mid to late 20s I was just getting into wine and buying a lot of different categories. I would buy inexpensive Spanish Tempranillo, say $7-15 and it always smelled and tasted like horse and horse stall. It became my “marker” for Tempranillo. Then one day I bought a bottle that was probably about $15, and it smelled and tasted like fruit. I remember literally thinking, “what the heck?”. And then I did a tasting where we tasted for wine faults, and the wine that had brettanomyces was really similar to the Tempranillos I had been buying. Honestly, at the time I preferred the horsey ones to the fruity one.
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Oh, you’re absolutely right* - the average by the glass list at restaurants is quite boring. But while the average restaurant is catering to people who aren’t that into wine, the average natural wine bar is catering to people looking to drink wine. But I think while we’d both much rather drink at a conventional wine bar, the question really is why the “youts” are often going to natural wine bars, and I don’t think it’s because the wines are better (and I don’t think it matters).
*With a few almost famous exceptions, natural wine bars have producers I’m always happy to drink. Lassaigne isn’t any more natural than a lot of Champagne producers that are not “natural”, but I’m very happy to have his wines available on those lists. (I actually think it’s in part because his occasional one off experiments produce some really weird wines, lol.)
So you’re saying Burgundy should be all the rage with the kids 
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I’m a middle boomer, and love hearing the opinions and experiences of younger folks. No boomer would not happily trade places with any millennial or genZ, in a heartbeat
This discussion has been interesting to read. I’m actually impressed with how many quite young wine geeks I know who already have as much wine knowledge and experience as I do. I frankly think there are more young wine geeks out there today than there have ever been. That may be different from the percentage that are drinking grocery or TJ wines regularly, but it’s what I’m exposed to.
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Lol…Adam, I’ve spent more hours of my life in a cellar than anywhere else and that cover is about as close to being real life as a Wrangler ad is to looking like real farmers.
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We don’t want no stinking reality, we want the sizzle! 
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Should be…but $$$, right?
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I was just down mucking my wet barn next to my wet horse and I told him, “Damn, you smell like a cheap Tempranillo.” But after a good grooming, he smells like a whole-cluster Pinot Noir.
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I think you truly answered the question before. They should be drinking Burgundy, and by extrapolation the other regions around France and into Italy and Germany(that’s not meant in an admonishing tone, “hey you kids, get off my natural wine bar and go drink Burgundy like you’re supposed to!”) But Burgundy isn’t a reality for most wine drinkers.
Burgundy sets the bar for wines of place. But when I was first learning about Burgundy, a lot of it wasn’t very good. But the concept and attraction of wines of place made the exploration worthwhile even if a wine was less than good. And that set the tone for all the wines we drank, Beaujolais, CdR, and the Loire. Even California.
I think natural wine is so attractive because it speaks really powerfully to how we think things should be, and to there being a group of people who are focused on actually being stewards and solving issues(or not solving them) without it being at the expense of the planet (mostly, though glass is glass).
I do think that you and I would prefer to drink at a conventional wine bar (conventional in it’s choices, not farming), but we probably would spend a bit more than I could have in my 20s.
Though, as you said, Lassaigne could easily be in both places. I don’t think of his wines as natural, though he can sometimes be hit or miss (I had the Alto bottling a couple of times and the VA on one was through the roof). But that, in my opinion is good news! It’s common ground for us all and a chance to get together and pour things that are authentic, place driven, farmed correctly, but maybe have just a bit of SO2 added after malolactic…
Agree with this. Burgundy is a bit of a Platonic ideal of wines of place. But the concept translates very well. When I first became nerdier about wine, I had a copy of The World Atlas of Wine and located the geographic origin of every wine I drank. It was a great learning experience and really shaped the way I think about wine.
There are a ton of places that offer reasonably-priced single-vineyard wines of place/terroir, including of course non-Cote d’Or Burgundy, Germany, certain regions in Italy, and many others. The problem, of course, is that finding and tasting these wines can be a huge challenge, particularly if you’re not in NY/LA/SF.
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Oh, I know some winemakers who love to shit all over people who drink inexpensive wines as well, but in general I agree that it’s largely wine consumers and, to probably an equal extent, wine retailers who put people off from the whole thing.
HUD defines “low income” as 80% of the median family income, and “very low income” as 50% of the median family income. In the DC metro area, for a single individual, this translates to $66,750 for “low income” and $52,750 for “very low income.” So at $50k/ year an individual is eligible for federally subsidized housing. Source: FY 2023 Income Limits Documentation System -- Summary for Montgomery County, Maryland
And before you look at the link and say “that’s Montgomery County!” the numbers are for the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD HUD Metro FMR Area, which includes the following: District of Columbia, DC; Calvert County, MD; Charles County, MD; Frederick County, MD; Montgomery County, MD; Prince George’s County, MD; Arlington County, VA; Clarke County, VA; Fairfax County, VA; Fauquier County, VA; Loudoun County, VA; Prince William County, VA; Spotsylvania County, VA; Stafford County, VA; Alexandria city, VA; Fairfax city, VA; Falls Church city, VA; Fredericksburg city, VA; Manassas city, VA; and Manassas Park city, VA.
Gross pay of $50k/year in Maryland after taxes is a net $39,674. Divide by 12, and that’s $3306/month- for housing, utilities, car payment, insurance, food, health insurance…
Now let’s look at your statement that a $315k home has a mortgage of $1500/month. This is only true if you are assuming a $94k down payment and not including taxes and insurance. The average 30yr fixed rate is 7.532%. With 20% down, or a $63k down payment, P&I will run $1768, with another $420 for taxes and homeowners insurance. The brings the total monthly payment to $2188. If that same person “only” has $30k for a down payment, they’re looking at $1982 for the loan, and another $605 in taxes and fees (including PMI) for a total of $2587. Again, how is a single person saving $30k for a down payment netting just $39,764/year? Ok, so let’s say they can’t save $30k, but they have been able to save $11k- the 3.5% down payment required for a FHA loan on a $315k home. Interest rates are actually a little more favorable for FHA loans, at 6.966%, which would likely make up for the 0.5% additional down payment required on a conventional conforming loan and allow for a potentially lower credit score. A 30-year fixed mortgage puts the P&I cost for the FHA loan at $2132/month, with an additional $671 in taxes and fees, for a total of $2803/month. That would leave the potential first-time buyer with $500 for health insurance, car expenses, utilities, 401k…That definitely doesn’t leave much for “wine” as a line item in the budget.
Sure, my future husband at the time and I each put a small down payment (3.5% on a FHA loan) on a townhouse/condo in Potomac (DC metro area) in 2002; I renovated it, and we flipped it two years later, doubling our purchase price and giving us the means to put 20% down and pay for closing costs on a nice house on 0.5 acre a scant two miles away. But that was 20 years ago. Good luck with that now. I also don’t know what kind of “home” you are getting in the DC metro area for $315k- the median sold home price in the DC metro area is $591k.
I consider myself lucky that over the years we had built up enough equity that when we divorced, I had a very good down payment for my current home, and that I refinanced at 2.675% when rates were low. Between my two jobs (one as a contractor for HUD ; ) ) and renting out my basement, I’m happily able to include wine in my budget and not stress too much about money. However I am under no illusion that the lovely woman who is renting from me and makes $80k at 31 years old will be moving out and purchasing a home any time soon, unless she has a partner with whom she can pool her resources.
The DC metro is extremely reasonable in terms of housing cost relative to other metropolitan areas, and one of the reasons I’m still here. There are others. But I would be delusional- and in subsidized housing- if I thought $50k/year would cut it. And I am aware of your use of “our” and “us,” so you don’t really believe that $50k is enough, do you?
But more to the topic, I don’t think I ever saw wine as a thing of beauty until I was able to try some truly remarkable wines. And unless you are able to have that “ah-ha” moment, you won’t prioritize high end wine over other expenses. Given that younger generations have less disposable income, it’s easier to shoot for a “unicorn” craft beer or high end cocktail than a “unicorn” bottle of wine- or even a moderately drinkable BTG wine when dining out.
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Correction - many winemakers . . . 
Please don’t let it distract from the point… young people aren’t drinking as much wine, but it’s not to do with them having money!
You’ve written a lot here, but it doesn’t change the facts of my 2013 purchase (or the buyer’s 2020 purchase with going rates of around 4%). A condo, as stated, for 300k, with a 3% down payment (have awesome credit, acknowledge that some people have to do 5%). With PMI, that loan was $1519. Taxes are low for DC primary residences of this value.
Again, as stated, my income was around 35k and my wife’s was 50k (what I called not much more)… and as stated, our monthly gross was around $4000.
This condo is in a prime location, about 100m from Cleveland Park Metro, and is in good condition.
I’m personally looking forward to 1970s-80s wine pricing (inflation adjusted). It goes in cycles. While I feel bad for the people making/growing it–it’s been a bubble for a while.
On a serious note, that’s not how Burgundy is perceived. The Burgundy that is “cool” these days is the antithesis of what Ryan was suggesting - mostly micronegoce wines made by producers who sometimes don’t even have any connection to the land the grapes come from (Kei Shiogiai basically suggested in an interview the farming mostly doesn’t matter, it’s all cellar work). Natural wines are an aesthetic, which is why they are easy to get into. They are also often made in a style that’s always ready to drink, even if I wouldn’t necessarily want to. The aesthetic of natural wine is very specific, and it’s not actually all that interested in wine makers that make mostly biodynamic wine with conventional labels but don’t go to natural wine fairs.
I forget which wine writer in the natural wine scene had a blog/substack not too long ago about a sudden realization a recent natural wine fair that most of the attendees were dressed the same way and there was a sameness to the labels and approaches and I laughed - that’s been obvious to many of us for a long time. Because it’s an aesthetic the natural wine movement is, if anything, more orthodox than the conventional wine world - the natural wine experience in Copenhagen, Barcelona, San Francisco and New York are quite similar, down to the same bad wine glasses, mostly the same producers, very similar labels, etc. etc.
On price, yes, Burgundy is tough, but the quality is also so much better than the 80s, 90s and some of the 2000s. (Parker was not entirely wrong!) The average village today from a decent producer is quite good - and that includes some of the big negociants. The problem is that a consumer somewhat need to know what you’re doing, but here you somewhat need to trust either your restaurant or your store. I don’t find them always trustworthy, and I very much sympathize that sometimes Burgundy can be difficult given that price. But I also think the cost can be exaggerated - Bouchard Perrieres and Fevre Clos are under $150 and are both great wines from some of the best terroir in Burgundy. I buy both and think Didier and Frederic make great wines.
I am sympathetic that it is harder to drink the very best wines, but it is all relative. I once sat next to a lovely couple at a dinner and discussed wine for a while. One of them mentioned they enjoyed Jaboulet La Chappelle and was surprised when I said that I’ve never had a La Chappelle I’ve found compelling. I said that I’ve had a fair amount of the 1989 and the 1990 and found them boring, to which my new friend replied that they’d never had a La Chappelle younger than the 1978. It’s all relative, you know?
P.S. Have you had Lassaigne’s red Coteaux? It tasted like kombucha 
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Ah, gotcha, you are applying 2013 math to 2024 reality. I somehow missed that bit. It’s probably just me, but I don’t consider a 1Br condo a “home,” and certainly not for two people. Those of you in NYC probably disagree!
In Cleveland Park, you’ll currently have to pay $409,900 if you want more than one bedroom, and that doesn’t include the $880/month HOA. Zillow’s estimated cost per month for the lowest-priced 2Br condo, again, at current interest rates and assuming 20% down, is $3213. Again, please explain how this is doable for a couple making $85k a year today.
Because that’s what we are talking about, right? The reality now, not the reality of 10 years ago?
As for my 31 year old tenant/housemate, she may be allocating more of her discretionary income to wine over time- it’s fun to see her try something, then shake her head in surprise, raise her eyebrows, and exclaim that she needs to go read about what she has just tasted.
ETA: It’s like anything: in order to value or prioritize it, you need to have an access point. Otherwise you don’t know what you are missing. The fact is that housing costs have risen considerably, and the cost of wine on the higher end has also risen considerably. This means that younger individuals without a decent amount of discretionary income simply aren’t ever in a position to try that wine that leads to them choosing a few bottles of wine over, say, saving for a down payment on a house or an extra $x toward their 401k. Even for those with a home, and some amount of discretionary income, it may not make sense. But then again, some people are more drawn to security and to “things” than they are to experiences. Maybe I should take a page from their playbook, but I always prefer experiences over things (my home excluded,) and lovely wine can be a transcendent experience. I’m thankful to those in this forum who have offered me entree into this world (and may have sent me down the road to perdition in the process…)
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