They just want a bottle of something to drink, not contemplate.
This. I go to a lot of natural wine bars in San Francisco, and the primary reason a lot of the people go to these places (generally I would say the age range is 22-35) is that they are fun, cool places to hang out with their friends.
And, trust me, a lot of these folks know the wines they are drinking are flawed (I like hearing people’s takes, and many think they are too funky). But, as Marco Pierre White once said about restaurants, the most important part of a meal is the people you are dining with – they are there to have fun with friends, listen to good music, dance, get a little tipsy, and maybe flirt and give their number to someone they think is cute. Almost no one is there trying to figure out whether the wine they ordered used whole clusters.
We had a millinial as an intern this year (great guy that we really enjoyed, and who is definitely into wine).
But I was a bit surprised to see in person his animosity to boomers and, tbh lack of regard for Gen Xers (my generation). My generation, in many ways, had a simpler life(100% my opinion, no facts here). Even if life today isn’t a disaster I feel that the stress that it could be a disaster, in their lifetime, is much worse now than it used to be.
And it definitely seems that some millinials look at previous generations as being at least partially responsible for that (probably not completely incorrectly).
I am really not worried about millimials not drinking wine. Partly because we have a pretty sizeable number on the mailing list but also because 20-30 years old is an age where there is so much more to do and the energy for it.
That energy doesn’t last forever, and as some hobbies (say flirting) go away, there’s room for bew ones.
Every generation is building on the success and dealing with the failures of the prior generation. Our generation is the first one where so many people have a voice, regardless of the quality, and frankly the boomers have a voice, too. But the thing that gave us our voice (internet), also changed the way information is distributed and the way wealth is distributed. A lot of millenials are having a hard time coping with seeing instagrams of private jets while they can barely make rent and at the same time listening to boomers tell them, “you just have to work harder” when that’s not really the case for everyone.
But as I said initially, those are the millenial’s responsibility to deal with. The boomers had a lot of successes that they passed along as well, now its the millenial’s responsibility to figure out the path forward.
I think that’s absolutely right; most people who go to natural wine bars are going with their friends because it’s cool and fun, but that’s equally true of people who drink wine generally. The average person drinking nice wine isn’t trying to figure out whether it’s made using whole cluster any more than someone drinking pet nat in the funkiest wine bar in Copenhagen.
The question is why are the young people going to natural wine bars, which is equally true in San Francisco as it is in Brooklyn. I’d say it’s because they’re cool - which is for various reasons, including that they’re (very intentionally marketed as) part of the counter culture.
Imho, any generation that grew up prior to the internet had a simpler life (not necessarily better). I can’t even imagine what it must be like for gen Z, who are literally defined by it. That would be miserable, and I feel for them. Also probably why they are so different from generations prior.
I think this has more to do with it than anything. Every generation is more health-conscious than the generation prior, so I bet a lot of gen Z sees alcohol as poison. The rise in popularity of n/a wine, beer, and mocktails, bears this out.
I’m not even sure the counter-culture is part of it. I think it’s 1) health-consciousness and 2) wanting quality.
As others have mentioned, everyone is a lot more health conscious now than even 10 years, and “alcohol is poison” is practically a meme at this point with all of the Andrew Huberman and other health/fitness videos and TikToks about that.
Just anecdotally, when I go out (not that often anymore), I rarely see people get as sloppy and hammered as they used to. I think, in general, younger people aren’t looking to get wasted anymore, and part of the appeal of wine, it’s lower alcohol than cocktails and mixed drinks, and it is seen as more sophisticated than beer, especially in the types of upscale settings that serve natural wine (compared to a sports bar for example).
I think natural wine in particular is popular is because it is viewed as higher quality than supermarket wine but is less expensive than quality conventional wine. Since most people are unfamiliar with wine producers, they are going to select based on price and trust the venue is serving them quality wine (a trust built on marketing, but I think less about counter culture, but more on the notion that natural wines are healthier, made by conscientious producers in small amounts, and higher quality). That many of these wines are faulty elicits a shrug — they’ll just try something else next time and go back to hanging out with their friends.
I agree with what many others have said. Expendable income is just not there. Many people in their 30’s who would typically start their wine journey simply don’t have the means to purchase quality wine. If you don’t fall in love with something early it’s hard to understand continuing. A majority can’t afford to buy a house so having a cellar for wine is far away from being obtainable.
With that said, there also isn’t a lot of wine education out there. Look at that pink wine that sold off the shelves when a pop singer had it in the backgrounds. I believe it was Taylor Swift. If a big YouTuber or twitch personality/streamer broke out and started talking about wine it would likely have a huge impact. We live in a very “now” world with a short attention span and wine is not that. Wine takes patience and education.
When something expensive also takes time and patience it’s not a receipt for success in the current age.
Others have said it already but it seems obvious that cost is going to be a big factor. The story behind this wine or that wine may matter, but who cares if the wine is $300/bottle and the owner made his money in software, hospitality, construction or whatever. To say that wine is not “corporate” makes no sense to someone who is not worth the $300 million needed to get into the wine business. And when you look at the glossy magazines like WS and Food and Wine, they look like they’re written for wealthy people with a lot of time on their hands.
If you’re fifty years old or more, think back about what you were thinking when you were in your early 20s. Were you trying to be as much like your parents as possible? Or like your grandparents? One of my grandfathers drank vodka or whiskey, the other drank schnapps, which was even worse, and the last thing I wanted to do was to be like them.
And then on top of it you’re supposed to discern differences between one wine and another and pronounce one superior to another? It’s really a closed world to many people. Someone says she likes Merlot. OK. Merlot from where? It’s not Pepsi - one Merlot does not taste exactly like another one unless it’s made by Gallo to spec. But now the person feels stupid and decides to drink a beer or cocktail that will always taste the same.
And in fact, that’s what the wineries do too - there is no reason to hire the same high-priced consultant as your neighbor does unless you want your wine to taste like his.
What’s worse is looking at the people “getting into” wine. Yay we have yet another basketball player or rapper into wine!! Yay! All you need is millions of dollars and you too can hire a series of consultants and talk about how you really love the product. Wine becomes something to associate with a Lamborghini - something you may be interested in when you make your millions.
I can completely understand wine not being attractive at all to someone with limited funds and anxiety about the work world.
But the thing is, when you present it to someone in a non-threatening way, and just talk for a few seconds about what it is, and maybe let them taste something side by side and compare, people of ALL ages show an interest. But more $300 vanity bottles are not going to entice anybody.
Thinking about when I was growing up in the UK in middle class Home Counties I would not say there was any greater interest in wine by younger people than today. Indeed probably a lot less but I have no stats.
Wine was also less common as an aperitif compared to Sherry or G&T or Martini.
The main difference was that cocktails really didn’t figure.
Wines widely available in pubs or bars were often dire. Ditto supermarket or cheaper off licence wines. Mind you pre CAMRA the same could be said for beer. (Special mention for Watney’s Red Barrel ).
And of course no internet so wine awareness was via family and friends.
I agree with the comments above that on the one hand low end wines are far less bad today (albeit usually boring) and “do the job”, that there are barriers to more serious study of wine (complexity, ritual). Fashions change however. The main long term challenge I see for the industry is lower alcohol consumption generally.
Good point about the magazines here in the US. They totally cater to the rich and feel like bought content most of the time. That’s not gonna get anyone young in. Look at Vigneron Magazine in France - they have an irreverent, more modern approach. We need something like that here:
I’m a complete outlier. I’m technically Gen Z iirc, but right on the fence of being a millennial. Either way, none of my friends drink wine. There are a few who are curious and will drink it with me, ask questions etc. but then the next day they’ll be drinking beer or a cocktail.
My younger cousin who’s 22 reached out to me a month or so ago and was asking questions about wine. He only has had Cabernet Sauvignon so far, but wants to learn. As many others have said, knowledge is a big barrier because of the time commitment. I also think a wine store is intimidating, people get embarrassed or just don’t want to ask someone for what they’re looking for.
Then there’s the economics. Of the people I know who do drink wine, most never spend more than $15 on a bottle. I don’t know why that is, but then they get sucked into Josh and others similar and just stick to that without a care in the world to learn more or expand.
I wish I had more answers of why my generation doesn’t, but like Marcus has said wine hasn’t really ever been a drink widely consumed by younger consumers.
I think the great thing about Gen Z is that they’re not afraid to use technology to answer the questions they may be afraid to ask in the wine shop, and in the long run that may get them ‘off the ground’ in the hobby faster than others.
Anecdotally Gen Z are my favorite to have in the tasting room because they’re genuinely curious, not bothersome, and tip very well.
I am an outlier too. I’m an elder millennial but am definitely the only one of my friends and colleagues who collects wine, let alone knows a lot about it. My wine journey was also non traditional—my parents don’t drink and I hated the boxed/jug wines at college hangs. Post college I lived in Brooklyn and I didn’t really care about wine until I started frequenting small retailers who leaned more in the natural or “natty” direction. That’s how I got to taste Michael Cruse’s stuff along with Peter Lauer, Nanclares y Prieto, Claire Naudin, and many other producers who make good to great wine in a low intervention style. From there I signed up for in-store wine clubs and eventually found my way to a WSET certification, started mainly because all of the books and tasting notes I would read would go over my head.
Wine has a lot of problems with the younger generations, many of which have been addressed on this thread, but the key ones in my experience are that of (1) cost/benefit (e.g: $15 BTG for mediocre at best wines stored at the wrong temps/opened for days at the large majority of restaurants is not as tempting as a $15 cocktail or $10 beer); (2) gatekeeping among those who could bring others along the journey with them but instead choose to close ranks and make flawed generalizations;(3) sheer availability of restaurants and retailers who give a shit about well made wine. I have lived in the NYC area for nearly 2 decades, but grew up in Kentucky and travel often to the Midwest for work. Total Wine is literally the best anyone can do in much of the country and there is an outsized reliance on grocery store wines. Small retailers who carry curated selections are few and far between outside of the major cities.
I think the argument that young people are drinking natural wine based on quality while those young people acknowledge some of those wines are flawed is one I find very convincing. Natural wine isn’t cheaper than conventional wine of a similar caliber - it’s a certain aesthetic. Why people choose the aesthetic can be debated, but it’s not “quality” per se, though the natural wine movement will talk about farming, organics, etc. (But that’s not about the quality of the wine itself.) That’s often the reason I get - it’s a natural expression, artisanal, more of an experience, not mass produced, etc. I’ve never talked to anyone at a natural wine bar that was there for health reasons, and I’ve spent a fair amount of time at 10 Bells (and there are a few natural wine bars I spend a fair amount of time at now!).
I would also add that most people who go to wine bars aren’t looking to get “sloppy and hammered” - there have always been easier ways to do that.
Anyway, we’re drifting quite far afield here. If young people want to drink natural wine, sante.
I think I meant to say there is a perception among people that “natural wine” is higher quality than normal wines they are typically exposed to – i.e., they are organic, healthier, low sulfer, artisanal, etc… And, what I meant to say when I said “they know the wines are flawed” was that many people I have talked to who had a natural wine thinks it tastes funky or weird (and not for them), but they think that is how the wine is supposed to taste and they don’t realize that the funk and volatile acidity is caused by winemaking flaws. (I bet a lot of these people who try natural wines they don’t like just think its because they don’t have a sophisticated palate, and not because the wine is flawed) But, because they are at the bar primarily for social reasons, they drink it anyway because the wine isn’t the main reason why they are there.
With respect to cost, at least with respect to the natural wine bars in the Mission, most bottles are under $80 and by the glass is usually around $15. That’s a lot cheaper than high-quality conventional wines at restaurants and about par for the lower-quality conventional wines you get at regular bars that don’t specialize in wine.
With respect to “sloppy and hammered,” I was referring to all nightlife venues (not just wine bars) – sports bars, night clubs, etc… It was meant to be a comment about people in their 20s not getting as drunk and out-of-control as people did when I was their age (my generation for sure was a lot more sloppy, but I would argue a lot more fun too, lol).
But, as you said, we are far adrift at this point with respect to the OP.
