Wine Industry Grapples with Being Something Only Boomers Like

WINE TALK
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Agree with this. Burgundy is a bit of a Platonic ideal of wines of place. But the concept translates very well. When I first became nerdier about wine, I had a copy of The World Atlas of Wine and located the geographic origin of every wine I drank. It was a great learning experience and really shaped the way I think about wine.

There are a ton of places that offer reasonably-priced single-vineyard wines of place/terroir, including of course non-Cote d’Or Burgundy, Germany, certain regions in Italy, and many others. The problem, of course, is that finding and tasting these wines can be a huge challenge, particularly if you’re not in NY/LA/SF.

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Oh, I know some winemakers who love to shit all over people who drink inexpensive wines as well, but in general I agree that it’s largely wine consumers and, to probably an equal extent, wine retailers who put people off from the whole thing.

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HUD defines “low income” as 80% of the median family income, and “very low income” as 50% of the median family income. In the DC metro area, for a single individual, this translates to $66,750 for “low income” and $52,750 for “very low income.” So at $50k/ year an individual is eligible for federally subsidized housing. Source: FY 2023 Income Limits Documentation System -- Summary for Montgomery County, Maryland
And before you look at the link and say “that’s Montgomery County!” the numbers are for the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD HUD Metro FMR Area, which includes the following: District of Columbia, DC; Calvert County, MD; Charles County, MD; Frederick County, MD; Montgomery County, MD; Prince George’s County, MD; Arlington County, VA; Clarke County, VA; Fairfax County, VA; Fauquier County, VA; Loudoun County, VA; Prince William County, VA; Spotsylvania County, VA; Stafford County, VA; Alexandria city, VA; Fairfax city, VA; Falls Church city, VA; Fredericksburg city, VA; Manassas city, VA; and Manassas Park city, VA.

Gross pay of $50k/year in Maryland after taxes is a net $39,674. Divide by 12, and that’s $3306/month- for housing, utilities, car payment, insurance, food, health insurance…

Now let’s look at your statement that a $315k home has a mortgage of $1500/month. This is only true if you are assuming a $94k down payment and not including taxes and insurance. The average 30yr fixed rate is 7.532%. With 20% down, or a $63k down payment, P&I will run $1768, with another $420 for taxes and homeowners insurance. The brings the total monthly payment to $2188. If that same person “only” has $30k for a down payment, they’re looking at $1982 for the loan, and another $605 in taxes and fees (including PMI) for a total of $2587. Again, how is a single person saving $30k for a down payment netting just $39,764/year? Ok, so let’s say they can’t save $30k, but they have been able to save $11k- the 3.5% down payment required for a FHA loan on a $315k home. Interest rates are actually a little more favorable for FHA loans, at 6.966%, which would likely make up for the 0.5% additional down payment required on a conventional conforming loan and allow for a potentially lower credit score. A 30-year fixed mortgage puts the P&I cost for the FHA loan at $2132/month, with an additional $671 in taxes and fees, for a total of $2803/month. That would leave the potential first-time buyer with $500 for health insurance, car expenses, utilities, 401k…That definitely doesn’t leave much for “wine” as a line item in the budget.

Sure, my future husband at the time and I each put a small down payment (3.5% on a FHA loan) on a townhouse/condo in Potomac (DC metro area) in 2002; I renovated it, and we flipped it two years later, doubling our purchase price and giving us the means to put 20% down and pay for closing costs on a nice house on 0.5 acre a scant two miles away. But that was 20 years ago. Good luck with that now. I also don’t know what kind of “home” you are getting in the DC metro area for $315k- the median sold home price in the DC metro area is $591k.

I consider myself lucky that over the years we had built up enough equity that when we divorced, I had a very good down payment for my current home, and that I refinanced at 2.675% when rates were low. Between my two jobs (one as a contractor for HUD ; ) ) and renting out my basement, I’m happily able to include wine in my budget and not stress too much about money. However I am under no illusion that the lovely woman who is renting from me and makes $80k at 31 years old will be moving out and purchasing a home any time soon, unless she has a partner with whom she can pool her resources.

The DC metro is extremely reasonable in terms of housing cost relative to other metropolitan areas, and one of the reasons I’m still here. There are others. But I would be delusional- and in subsidized housing- if I thought $50k/year would cut it. And I am aware of your use of “our” and “us,” so you don’t really believe that $50k is enough, do you?

But more to the topic, I don’t think I ever saw wine as a thing of beauty until I was able to try some truly remarkable wines. And unless you are able to have that “ah-ha” moment, you won’t prioritize high end wine over other expenses. Given that younger generations have less disposable income, it’s easier to shoot for a “unicorn” craft beer or high end cocktail than a “unicorn” bottle of wine- or even a moderately drinkable BTG wine when dining out.

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Correction - many winemakers . . . :upside_down_face::blush::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::popcorn:

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Please don’t let it distract from the point… young people aren’t drinking as much wine, but it’s not to do with them having money!

You’ve written a lot here, but it doesn’t change the facts of my 2013 purchase (or the buyer’s 2020 purchase with going rates of around 4%). A condo, as stated, for 300k, with a 3% down payment (have awesome credit, acknowledge that some people have to do 5%). With PMI, that loan was $1519. Taxes are low for DC primary residences of this value.

Again, as stated, my income was around 35k and my wife’s was 50k (what I called not much more)… and as stated, our monthly gross was around $4000.

This condo is in a prime location, about 100m from Cleveland Park Metro, and is in good condition.

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I’m personally looking forward to 1970s-80s wine pricing (inflation adjusted). It goes in cycles. While I feel bad for the people making/growing it–it’s been a bubble for a while.

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On a serious note, that’s not how Burgundy is perceived. The Burgundy that is “cool” these days is the antithesis of what Ryan was suggesting - mostly micronegoce wines made by producers who sometimes don’t even have any connection to the land the grapes come from (Kei Shiogiai basically suggested in an interview the farming mostly doesn’t matter, it’s all cellar work). Natural wines are an aesthetic, which is why they are easy to get into. They are also often made in a style that’s always ready to drink, even if I wouldn’t necessarily want to. The aesthetic of natural wine is very specific, and it’s not actually all that interested in wine makers that make mostly biodynamic wine with conventional labels but don’t go to natural wine fairs.

I forget which wine writer in the natural wine scene had a blog/substack not too long ago about a sudden realization a recent natural wine fair that most of the attendees were dressed the same way and there was a sameness to the labels and approaches and I laughed - that’s been obvious to many of us for a long time. Because it’s an aesthetic the natural wine movement is, if anything, more orthodox than the conventional wine world - the natural wine experience in Copenhagen, Barcelona, San Francisco and New York are quite similar, down to the same bad wine glasses, mostly the same producers, very similar labels, etc. etc.

On price, yes, Burgundy is tough, but the quality is also so much better than the 80s, 90s and some of the 2000s. (Parker was not entirely wrong!) The average village today from a decent producer is quite good - and that includes some of the big negociants. The problem is that a consumer somewhat need to know what you’re doing, but here you somewhat need to trust either your restaurant or your store. I don’t find them always trustworthy, and I very much sympathize that sometimes Burgundy can be difficult given that price. But I also think the cost can be exaggerated - Bouchard Perrieres and Fevre Clos are under $150 and are both great wines from some of the best terroir in Burgundy. I buy both and think Didier and Frederic make great wines.

I am sympathetic that it is harder to drink the very best wines, but it is all relative. I once sat next to a lovely couple at a dinner and discussed wine for a while. One of them mentioned they enjoyed Jaboulet La Chappelle and was surprised when I said that I’ve never had a La Chappelle I’ve found compelling. I said that I’ve had a fair amount of the 1989 and the 1990 and found them boring, to which my new friend replied that they’d never had a La Chappelle younger than the 1978. It’s all relative, you know?

P.S. Have you had Lassaigne’s red Coteaux? It tasted like kombucha :smiley:

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Ah, gotcha, you are applying 2013 math to 2024 reality. I somehow missed that bit. It’s probably just me, but I don’t consider a 1Br condo a “home,” and certainly not for two people. Those of you in NYC probably disagree!

In Cleveland Park, you’ll currently have to pay $409,900 if you want more than one bedroom, and that doesn’t include the $880/month HOA. Zillow’s estimated cost per month for the lowest-priced 2Br condo, again, at current interest rates and assuming 20% down, is $3213. Again, please explain how this is doable for a couple making $85k a year today.

Because that’s what we are talking about, right? The reality now, not the reality of 10 years ago?

As for my 31 year old tenant/housemate, she may be allocating more of her discretionary income to wine over time- it’s fun to see her try something, then shake her head in surprise, raise her eyebrows, and exclaim that she needs to go read about what she has just tasted.

ETA: It’s like anything: in order to value or prioritize it, you need to have an access point. Otherwise you don’t know what you are missing. The fact is that housing costs have risen considerably, and the cost of wine on the higher end has also risen considerably. This means that younger individuals without a decent amount of discretionary income simply aren’t ever in a position to try that wine that leads to them choosing a few bottles of wine over, say, saving for a down payment on a house or an extra $x toward their 401k. Even for those with a home, and some amount of discretionary income, it may not make sense. But then again, some people are more drawn to security and to “things” than they are to experiences. Maybe I should take a page from their playbook, but I always prefer experiences over things (my home excluded,) and lovely wine can be a transcendent experience. I’m thankful to those in this forum who have offered me entree into this world (and may have sent me down the road to perdition in the process…)

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Good thougts, and I pretty much agree.

Regardless of how original the first producers choosing a “natural” aesthetic were, Joe Dressner opened the seas for demand for the style much more rapidly than the first producers could ever keep up with. Most niches for wine production are already full with well established producers so it takes a large amount of respurces to “become a winemaker”.

Demand for natural wines opened the door for many people lacking a 7-8 figure budget to follow a dream. But it is relatively orthodox, and since demand is driving the bus as much as history, producers are living up to expectations as much as they alcreating or innovating.

That’s NOT a slam on natural producers-almost no one in winemaking is actually creating or innovating. 7000 years later this industry is more Ecclesiastes than Genesis…

Sadly, there is a section of wine production, natural and conventional, that promotes cellar over vineyard…it’s horse poop but they can say what they like. And if you have a newish small producer with a cellar and no vineyard, he’s more likely to say that the cellar is dominant because he sees the magic of ferment and also how much of an impact his decisions have. Growers are often the same but in reverse.

I feel lucky that I’ve seen the difference that the vineyard itself makes. But I was only looking because I drank Burgundy.

That said, I enjoy Fevre and Bouchard. Weirdly, my father’s cousin is married to one of the Bouchard family. He enjoys the older wines but feels the wines are better after the family sold the production to the current owners.

But while Bouchard and Fevre make excellent wines, neither have ever really captured my fancy. At a certain size, harvest is too compressed to be handled in any way but efficiency first. Which leads too straightforward for me (much better than Kombucha though). And too be fair, small producers can be undercapitalized leading to opportunities missed and mistakes from overwork. But at $150, I doubt too many millinials will jump in the game even for a solid Burgundy producer. I’m lucky, I can drink Violin, Vincent, and Walter Scott for considerably less, scratch my unique itch and keep the quality up as well. But we’ve never codified vineyards in Oregon or even had a comprehensive reference text published for the vineyards.

P.S. I worry about Lassaigne a bit. I love the wines, though Oregon sees none of them except the Le Vins de Montguex. But high VA levels come from microbial issues, and each time a wine builds signifocant VA the population grows. And then becomes a bigger challenge. Un-bottled sparkling wines are low sulfur by nature, they need to referment under harsh circumstances, so adding much sulfur before bottling is challenging. Once a Kombucha brewer…always a Kombucha brewer (maybe not that dire but you get what I mean).

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Most people in the industry have opinions, positive and negative, about wines. Some of the critiques are harsh.

I don’t think I know many people who critique the person who drinks those wines. It’s definitely a different thing.

I think Coors Light sucks. Same for Barefoot. I don’t think negatively of anyone buying them. Their life is their life and I respect them making the choice that suits them.

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Well, at nearly 50 I am not sure which group I belong to, since I was raised with computers and social media, though obviously not to the extent of the current crop of people who are recently of legal drinking age, but I think I understand why these wines appeal to younger people.

In my opinion, it’s because many younger people have been conditioned to purchase products based on how they are marketed rather than how good they are. Story is more important than actual quality to people who are constantly bombarded with hip new trends. Tell a story that clearly pits your product “against the norm” and you will definitely attract younger consumers who see themselves (ironically?) as “those who go against the grain.”

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Sounds like the young Marcus Goodfellow would have loved natural wines LOL!

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I think this is a very condescending view. Young people aren’t stupid. Setting aside the ability of people of any age to waste money, young people aren’t actively seeking to buy products which are bad, and they aren’t going to continue to purchase something they don’t enjoy. Are they susceptible to marketing? Sure, just like every generation before them. Marketing something as new and fresh and different has long been an effective strategy. The issue of “actual quality,” may have some merit, as today’s younger generations have been raised in a world of fast casual everything where nothing - from appliances to clothes to phones to computers - is made to last, and all is designed to be replaced in short order. But that doesn’t really apply to consumables. They still ultimately want something they enjoy. I doubt many of them drink something and say, “that was awful, but I like the marketing so I’ll keep buying it.” Like it or not, the more reasonable conclusion is that these people like these wines. Yes, even though this board in general is extreme hostile to natural wines it simply must be that people actually like them. (disclosure, I like some natural wines and find the antipathy on this board to be way OTT, but it is far from any significant portion of my consumption)

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Probably, but only until I discovered Burgundy :wink:

I think a lot of the wines back then were closer than one might think. Even now, most of the producers I know and buy from are closer to natural than they are to manufactured.

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You say this like there is not a ton of Natural wine made in Burgundy :slight_smile: In fact Burgundy is probably one of the hottest areas for young natural winemakers especially in some of the fringe areas.

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100%, and often made in a glou glou style.

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It’s also extremely fair to say that something farmed organically and made without interventions is actually a good thing (in a macro-view).

A bottle of wine that had glyphosate sprayed all around it may taste “good” but not necessarily be good.

My antipathy for natural wines is almost wholly based around two things:

  1. demonization of sulfur, which no natural winemaker has ever been able to explain to me beyond the idea that the wines have fresher fruit while they are in the cellar (this is mostly true). But that’s a short term reality, and it fails to look at what the wine will be like after travel and how long the wine needs to survive before the cork gets pulled. For however much the fruit may taste more intense in the cellar, I’ve had too many bottles that were oxidized and dead when I opened them.

  2. the lack of significant experience on the part of many of the local natural winemakers vs their willingness to “lay down the law” on what’s right in the cellar. While not really acknowledging the serious inconsistency of their own work.

If my reaction to that is OTT for you, my apologies. I have a friend that has shown me tremendous natural wines, but in the wider world there are too many really cute/cool labels and too few really good wines, too often pitched to me as something beyond others achievements in regions I have previously had great wines from.

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You were definitely not who I had in mind when I mentioned the OTT reactions. I find that basically any mention of natural wine on this board is met with an absolute flood of vitriol. This thread alone has a ton of it. It’s like everyone has to get in their two cents about it while patting themselves on the back for not having such flawed tastes. It gets boring quite quickly at the very least. In the context of this thread, I think it has served as a significant distraction from the more pertinent and interesting issues involved here.

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Unfortunately, I don’t buy much Burgundy anymore. While not a millinial, it’s price point is prohibitive for 90%+ of my favorite producers. (Starting the winery didn’t help and openly, neither does being immersed in what is good in Oregon. We have producers like Morgen Long, Martin Woods, Walter Scott, PGC, and Kelley Fox, so buying Burgundy isn’t as necessary as it used to be).

And flatly, I love traditional Burgundy. The new higher abv crushable in youth is not my thing-not at all.

If you have a recommendation for a couple of the new natural winemakers in Burgundy who fit that bill, I am all ears. I definitely respect your knowledge and would be happy to explore some of the people you suggest.

But I like vintages picked in October or late September over August or first of September picks. I’m happy to wait for a vintage with that type of picks as Burgundy has mostly been on a streak of warmer vintages.

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That’s fair and appreciated.

One of the biggest problems with modern media is that we all do want to get a thought in, and collectively the positive or negative aggregate weighs heavier than the true reality of the subject.

Though I also believe reactions on the board are stronger than most because most posters have had a wider than normal number of great wine experiences and the bar we measure things by is less forgiving. We’re used to not just consistency, but consistency at a very high level. And the inconsistencies in bottles is more acutely sensed here.

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