Greg_K
November 10, 2020, 11:10pm
61
It was just about expensive wines, generally — as, I thought you just pulled out CLB as a general concept as opposed to a specific wine. But, I may have misinterpreted.
No, my comment was about CLB’s style particularly.
Greg_K
November 10, 2020, 11:16pm
62
To be clear, I meant drinking them with as much age as Americans do. I have a number of friends who love Barolo from the 50s and 60s, and it’s an common theme; I’ve never seen enthusiasm like that anywhere else for Barolo that old, including from the winemakers themselves. I am happy to be shown to be wrong.
Well, compared to how small country Finland is, we have a thriving community of Nebbiolo lovers here. Every year we have multiple verticals and other tastings that focus only on aged Nebbiolo, i.e. wines from 1980-1950, occasionally even older bottles. Not just Barolo, but also Barbaresco, Alto Piemonte, Carema and Lombardy. And I don’t think we’re the only people in the world doing that.
I’ll try to make myself more clear. I do not doubt there are people in Finland and other places that drink very old nebbiolos. My point was that in the United States, my experience in the wine community is a very significant preference for nebbiolo with massive amounts of age on it. Festa di Barolo, for instance, has almost everyone (except for the producers, interestingly) bring extremely old bottles. That is not, for example, how Paulee works - some old, some young. My European friends simply do not place any kind of similar premium on this amount of age in their nebbiolo. That does not mean they don’t ALSO drink some older nebbiolo. I hope that made it clearer.
Greg_P
November 11, 2020, 12:33am
63
Whoa…how very cool to have met him. My all time favorite Barbaresco is from Produttori, the Rabaja Riserva…the last vintage I bought was from 2000. The last bottle of the case I had was drunk in 2011 and it was just as lively as I remembered all the rest. I’m definitely a fan of aging my wines. I’ve only had 1 fall flat on it’s face, a single vineyard Cab from Berenger. But like the OP, I’ve had a few that were on the downhill side of things. But thankfully, most of my patience has been rewarded. Smoother, more supple tannins being among the most noticeable traits I enjoy in aged wine. But agree with many others here, some wines are better for aging than others.
Did Mr. Vacca say what the ‘sweet spot’ was for drinking Produttori offerings? I’m sure there’s a lot of variables being they are a co-op of sorts.
Whoa…how very cool to have met him. My all time favorite Barbaresco is from Produttori, the Rabaja Riserva…the last vintage I bought was from 2000. The last bottle of the case I had was drunk in 2011 and it was just as lively as I remembered all the rest. I’m definitely a fan of aging my wines. I’ve only had 1 fall flat on it’s face, a single vineyard Cab from Berenger. But like the OP, I’ve had a few that were on the downhill side of things. But thankfully, most of my patience has been rewarded. Smoother, more supple tannins being among the most noticeable traits I enjoy in aged wine. But agree with many others here, some wines are better for aging than others.
Did Mr. Vacca say what the ‘sweet spot’ was for drinking Produttori offerings? I’m sure there’s a lot of variables being they are a co-op of sorts.
It’s very vintage dependent. He said that he prefer most of the wines 7-10 years from the vintage, but more structured years (e.g. 2008, 2013) could be 10+.
Whoa…how very cool to have met him. My all time favorite Barbaresco is from Produttori, the Rabaja Riserva…the last vintage I bought was from 2000. The last bottle of the case I had was drunk in 2011 and it was just as lively as I remembered all the rest. I’m definitely a fan of aging my wines. I’ve only had 1 fall flat on it’s face, a single vineyard Cab from Berenger. But like the OP, I’ve had a few that were on the downhill side of things. But thankfully, most of my patience has been rewarded. Smoother, more supple tannins being among the most noticeable traits I enjoy in aged wine. But agree with many others here, some wines are better for aging than others.
Did Mr. Vacca say what the ‘sweet spot’ was for drinking Produttori offerings? I’m sure there’s a lot of variables being they are a co-op of sorts.
Yes, he recommends them at year 8 to a max of 20 if I remember right from the Levi Dalton podcast. It’s all personal preference. I had a 1999 Rabaja over the holidays that was spectacular and likely would improve, subject to one’s preference.
As for the OP, I agree that there is this groupthink/waiting for magic/everything must be aged mentality out there. I happen to like wines that are very youthful and very aged, so it’s almost never an issue for me, but if you don’t like older wines then just drink them young. It’s no crime to go against the “all Bedrocks need at least 5 years of age” thinkers.
I agree with the rest of your post, other than that I’m not really sure there is some strong “groupthink” about aging new world wines. Most people around here seem to drink them younger, and when the topic of aging new world - and particularly California - wines comes up around here, all or most of the disdain is directed at the idea that they are worth aging.
Could anyone show me a few WB threads where there is strong groupthink or consensus in favor of aging California wines? If much of this thread is about reacting to groupthink, we might pause first and see if that even exists.
Chris, I would think it totally depends on the winery and style of wine. If someone said that an Edmunds St. John, Eyrie, Tablas Creek, Swan, Dunn, Mayacamas, etc. should be aged, I don’t think you’d get any disdain at all. Those are wineries that have made more traditionally-styled, balanced wines and there is considerable evidence that they not only last, but truly develop in the cellar. But a lot of the big, higher alcohol, higher new oak wines from the '90s and beyond are a different story. I thought they were grotesque at the time, and have never felt that they would age very well at all. The few I’ve tried since haven’t changed my mind, either.
Some wines don’t need age, and while there are wines I enjoy (especially many whites and roses) that might age nicely, some are so fun and exuberant in their youth that I’d rather drink them for that them see if they can hold on or develop more. Not every wine has to be put away for 10-20 years, and if you, or anyone, likes them at a younger age, drink them then. Even if “conventional wisdom” says otherwise.
As for the OP, I agree that there is this groupthink/waiting for magic/everything must be aged mentality out there. I happen to like wines that are very youthful and very aged, so it’s almost never an issue for me, but if you don’t like older wines then just drink them young. It’s no crime to go against the “all Bedrocks need at least 5 years of age” thinkers.
I agree with the rest of your post, other than that I’m not really sure there is some strong “groupthink” about aging new world wines. Most people around here seem to drink them younger, and when the topic of aging new world - and particularly California - wines comes up around here, all or most of the disdain is directed at the idea that they are worth aging.
Could anyone show me a few WB threads where there is strong groupthink or consensus in favor of aging California wines? If much of this thread is about reacting to groupthink, we might pause first and see if that even exists.
Chris, I would think it totally depends on the winery and style of wine. If someone said that an Edmunds St. John, Eyrie, Tablas Creek, Swan, Dunn, Mayacamas, etc. should be aged, I don’t think you’d get any disdain at all. Those are wineries that have made more traditionally-styled, balanced wines and there is considerable evidence that they not only last, but truly develop in the cellar. But a lot of the big, higher alcohol, higher new oak wines from the '90s and beyond are a different story. I thought they were grotesque at the time, and have never felt that they would age very well at all. The few I’ve tried since haven’t changed my mind, either.
Some wines don’t need age, and while there are wines I enjoy (especially many whites and roses) that might age nicely, some are so fun and exuberant in their youth that I’d rather drink them for that them see if they can hold on or develop more. Not every wine has to be put away for 10-20 years, and if you, or anyone, likes them at a younger age, drink them then. Even if “conventional wisdom” says otherwise.
Good advice +1
There are plenty of Cali wines that age beautifully. One of my favorite wines on earth, despite being a bit of a Europhile when it comes to wine, is Togni’s cab. It ages wonderfully.
Greg_P
November 11, 2020, 1:25am
68
I had this thought last night as I was loading a few shipments into the cellar.
Did I drink them too young? Did I miss the youth window and now they’ll be in a shut down phase? Or, will I wait too long?
I think I’m coming around to the screw it, just drink it and stop having FOMO about how great it could’ve been camp. Plus, I’m running out of storage and if I don’t start drinking I can’t buy more!
I’m now there too! Gotta drink because storage is almost gone…
Greg_P
November 11, 2020, 1:44am
69
Whoa…how very cool to have met him. My all time favorite Barbaresco is from Produttori, the Rabaja Riserva…the last vintage I bought was from 2000. The last bottle of the case I had was drunk in 2011 and it was just as lively as I remembered all the rest. I’m definitely a fan of aging my wines. I’ve only had 1 fall flat on it’s face, a single vineyard Cab from Berenger. But like the OP, I’ve had a few that were on the downhill side of things. But thankfully, most of my patience has been rewarded. Smoother, more supple tannins being among the most noticeable traits I enjoy in aged wine. But agree with many others here, some wines are better for aging than others.
Did Mr. Vacca say what the ‘sweet spot’ was for drinking Produttori offerings? I’m sure there’s a lot of variables being they are a co-op of sorts.
Yes, he recommends them at year 8 to a max of 20 if I remember right from the Levi Dalton podcast. It’s all personal preference. I had a 1999 Rabaja over the holidays that was spectacular and likely would improve, subject to one’s preference.
How I wish I had more of the 2000…I was just learning about Italian vino back then. Such beautiful wines. I will try and find that podcast.
The Aldo Vacca interview is one of his better podcasts.
Sometimes I wonder why I sit on all this wine waiting for it to magically transform into some awesome elixir. This weekend I opened a 2011 Bedrock Papera Ranch Zinfandel that had transformed into something that I didn’t enjoy as much as I did the last time I opened one. I mean, it was good and all but it was way better when it was younger. What am I waiting for?
Tonight I instead told myself to grab the first ‘16 or ‘17 I read on a cork. I opened a 2016 The Bedrock Heritage that is lovely and I think, the heck with all of the wine geeks who think these aren’t ready. Let them wait for the fruit and liveliness to drain out of their wines. I’m going back to being a cork puller. Wine was way more fun back then.
Dammit Brian, until you tuited this diatribe, I was haiku aging my shit. So you forced me to crack a 2018 Bedrock, damn this is good shit…
Haha, but better in 3-5!
Wtf, how does Siri change “happy” to “haiku”!?
Bedrock is better young
PS. If it ain’t obvious already, I may have accidentally consumed this bottle already.
Wtf, how does Siri change “happy” to “haiku”!?
Bedrock is better young
PS. If it ain’t obvious already, I may have accidentally consumed this bottle already.
Haiku Aging My Shit needs to be burned onto a reclaimed piece of wood and hung in the Mud Room next to the Golden Foyer…
Wtf, how does Siri change “happy” to “haiku”!?
Bedrock is better young
PS. If it ain’t obvious already, I may have accidentally consumed this bottle already.
When you’ve drank the whole bottle Siri doesn’t understand your slurred speech quite as well. Or, at least that’s what my wife says.
Could be my heavy Cuban accent. I’ve heard it’s hard to decipher when I speak in Spanglish.
My rant in the OP involved the wines I listed, how the group think on this board swayed how I treated these wines and my experience this week. I wasn’t rolling all California wines into one statement. That would be foolish.
Only some aging narcissistic fuck would burn that shit anywhere!
As usual, I’m one step behind.
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