Why spatburgunder?

WINE TALK
1

I’m sure there’s a simple answer but why spat, as in late, burgundy?

2

late ripening

3

Because Rotburgunder sounds awful! :wink:

4

Kind of funny that Weißburgunder isn’t chardonnay.

5

It´s SPÄT- or for US-keyboards: Spaet-Burgunder … which simply means “late” …

It ripens later than the "FRÜH-Burgunder (= early Burgundy) which is another used variety …

(BTW: in Austria it´s called Blauburgunder ( = blue Burgundy), in opposite to Weissburgunder.

Why should Weissburgunder ( = Pinot blanc) be the same as Chardonnay ? Pinot blanc and Chardonnay are different varieties everywhere.

There is also Grauburgunder (grey Burgundy) = Pinot gris … in Germany called Ruländer.

6

Isn’t it funny that white Burgundy isn’t made from pinot blanc? [snort.gif]

7

You could also wonder about the reasons why if new world countries use the term burgundy, it’s ‘passing off’, but perfectly acceptable for Germany to use a regional name of another country for their own wines…

8

Nobody in Germany is entitled to call a wine “Burgundy” or “Burgunder” or “Bourgogne” - it must say “Spätburgunder” (or Frühburgunder, or Weissburgunder) … and that´s a variety, not a region.
(and please remember that in the middle ages La Bourgogne belonged to German empire, the grape comes from there …)

In the USA the variety in question is called Pinot noir (isn´t it ?) - and so the wines may be called legally.

Easy if you think about it.

Also in France itself a wine from Pinot noir grown outside of Burgundy may not be called “Bourgogne” - it would lead to illegal confusion.
People who insist on calling their Pinot noir “Burgundy” or “Bourgogne” simply would like to profit from this confusion … strawman

YES, THAT´s funny [cheers.gif]

9

Gerhard
White Burgundy is a banned term in the new world, but Weissburgunder is ok in Germany. Will it be ok if the Aussies call the grape White Burgundy?

Perhaps a better analogy, is the Italians who had for many years been using the name Tocai for wines made from grapes whose parentage was vines give to them as a gift by the Hungarians. Now they’re banned from using the name.

I’m not naïve though. This is not about a consistent rule that protects place of origin as it was argued. It’s about trade negotiations, and France chose not to take Germany on over this issue, but Hungary chose to do so with Italy. Italy meanwhile changed the name of the grape Processo to ‘Glera’ to prevent the Aussies amongst others marketing Prosecco wines.

I’m pleased to note that there are producers in Germany who choose to use the grape name Pinot Noir rather than Spatburgunder. I think they are doing the right thing.

regards
Ian

10

I found that contrast useful when I first explored the wines.

11

So you think Germans should use the French name of the variety. Yeah, that makes sense.

12

Better spät than never… [thankyou.gif]

13

Ian,
“Spätburgunder” is the name of the grape variety in Germany - used for ages -
“White Burgundy” is not the name of the variety in Australia - never was.

The Aussies can label a wine “Riesling” if from this grape, but they cannot call it “Mosel”.
Here in Europe we cannot call a wine (White or Red) “Californian” - but Cabernet Sauvignon or Chardonnay is ok.

Clear?

14

Ian - PN has been grown and turned into wine in Germany since probably around 14th century. The back part of the term “…burgunder” basically is the German word for “Pinot…” so you then have blue, white, grey, late and early in Germanic languages. Sure, passing off probably happened a couple of hundred years ago, but the scope for confusion has long passed I would say. It’s just the German word for the grape and wine now, not some form of trademark infringement. Also, please pay 50c to the Goethe society each time you use the word Kindergarten from now…

15

Indeed there should be no doubt that it is/was passing off.

Don’t forget though that the Aussies were using Burgundy, champagne and Claret for many decades before trade negotiations brought an end to it. 14th Century is different to early 19th Century when ‘Miller’s Burgundy’ was being used to describe Pinot Meunier in Australia, but both a long time ago. Is there a valid cut off period?

The agreed (World Trade?) intention was that place names should not be appropriated. Thus Methode Traditionelle is accepted but Methode Champenoise is banned (and thus kindergarten or other adopted words are not in the remit of that agreement). It was ‘meant’ to be about place names & protecting the region of origin.

… that there are inconsistencies is disappointing, but the reality is that these are inter-governmental disputes. As I said, I’m not so naïve as to realise otherwise.

regards
Ian

16

p.s. FWIW ‘Letters on the culture of the vine’ (William Macarthur, 1844) talked of Burgundy / Black Cluster grape (believed to refer to Pinot Noir), so such usage goes back a little further than you might expect.

17

So after years of thinking it was chardonnay, I was looking for Alsatian pinot blanc, and when the wine store guy (Tim @ Weygandts in DC). I’m really not looking for a chard. Then I got into a 5 minute argument about what the grape was in Weissburgunder. Doh, felt dumb.

18

Thus the argument is simply that since we have been calling it Burgunder (German for “from Burgundy”) for a long time, it’s OK?

19

Remember that much of your Alsatian Pinot Blanc is actually Auxerrois.

20

now you can fill’em in about Blauburgunder…