Why is Rayas so singular?

[larry_schaffer]

Jeff,

I hear you - I’m just thinking bigger picture and broader audience.

Cheers

[William_Kelley]

It’s tough to say that no one makes better CdP though - since neither Rayas nor Pignan are ‘traditional’ in any way. They are 'singular in their make up and expression, but oh so different than all others. Tough to compare with wines like Beaucastel . . .

I think it’s quite easy to say that they are better. Just as it’s quite easy to say that butter is better than margarine.

[larry_schaffer]

It’s tough to say that no one makes better CdP though - since neither Rayas nor Pignan are ‘traditional’ in any way. They are 'singular in their make up and expression, but oh so different than all others. Tough to compare with wines like Beaucastel . . .

I think it’s quite easy to say that they are better. Just as it’s quite easy to say that butter is better than margarine.

Or pancakes and waffles . . .

Cheers

[William_Kelley]

I said Rayas would go over $1000 a bottle in USA. Many doubted it. Bought few for $380 back then. Wish I bought everything I could find.

The funny thing is that, relative to prices for a lot of wines, Rayas is still cheap. Masseto is 800 EUR per bottle, apparently…

[William_Kelley]

Certain wines have a reputation for transcending their appellations or varieties. Clos Rougeard. Vatan. d’Auvenay Auxey, perhaps. But nothing quite like Rayas, which is orders of magnitude more revered and expensive than anything else in Chateauneuf – and becoming dearer by the day. And more than that, Rayas is qualitatively quite unique and distinctive compared with other wines the the appellation. Which raises the questions: What is it about Rayas’s terroir, and/or its viticulture and winemaking, that makes it unique? It it replicable? And relatedly, why can’t anyone come close to replicating what Rayas is doing? The incentive is surely there. Is anyone really trying to make wines in the same style that approach what Rayas is doing? Who?

Just genuinely curious here. I used to love CndP, but like many of us, I have basically stopped buying them at some point over the last decade. But I’m interested in whether there are producers I’m missing.

I wrote about just this question in 2016: The singularity of Château Rayas – William Kelley

There are a lot of things going on. I think if you look at what the des Tours wines, Fonsalette, and Pignan all share with Rayas, I think that tells you how much the Reynaud style of winemaking is responsible. Low yields, super late harvesting, fully crushed fruit that’s not destemmed, submerged cap macerations with pump-overs for about two weeks, and élevage in neutral wood of a variety of formats are the rudiments of the approach. There are surely some other secrets, too, as no one else to my mind has really been able to hit the same notes (I guess some vintages of Charvin and Chapelle de St Théoderic would be two of the leading contenders).

The next step is to look at what Pignan and Rayas have in common: because both share very similar geology sand, and agglomerated sand / friable sandstone (that the locals call “safre” [sometimes seemingly spelt “saffre”]); and an unusually cool mesoclimate, partly because most of the land the Reynauds own is left as coniferous forest, not planted to vines (both sites are surrounded by trees). Clearly, these two wines are different from the Château des Tours and Fonsalette wines, despite sharing the Reynaud signature, and the respects in which they differ are, I think, owing to the site (there is also the fact that they are more or less pure Grenache, unlike the other Reynaud wines).

The differences between Pignan and Rayas seem to me to be substantially owing to the fact that Pignan has a single uniform exposition, whereas Rayas straddles a small valley and so has three different expositions. The three blocks of Rayas capture respectively the morning, midday and afternoon sun, which I think helps make sense of Rayas’ greater plenitude and aromatic range. In other words, it’s a single climat that delivers the advantages of a blended wine.

Thanks for the additional info. So Rayas is 100% whole cluster but the berries are crushed before fermentation - is that correct?

It would seem to me that the late harvest picking, which is not surprising with Grenache, would be challenging in the cooler mesoclimates that they have, especially if you have extremes in weather.

Cheers.

Yes, they go through a must pump. And Reynaud, like me, somewhat despises any sort of “carbonic” quality in wines.

Given that CdP is generally a touch warm these days, I think there’s a lot to be said for being in a cool spot and picking when you want to, vs. being in a warm spot and picking when you are obliged to.

[Dennis_Borczon]

Worth checking out Chapelle de St Théoderic. Interesting wine, if not the cult favorite of Rayas. Also grown on mostly sand. Last time I had it the aroma and flavor was almost pure raspberry. Quite interesting and graceful.

[Scott_Brunson]

I said Rayas would go over $1000 a bottle in USA. Many doubted it. Bought few for $380 back then. Wish I bought everything I could find.

The funny thing is that, relative to prices for a lot of wines, Rayas is still cheap. Masseto is 800 EUR per bottle, apparently…

I know.
Also bought those for MUCH less than that.
In the good old days

[Keith_Levenberg]

Certain wines have a reputation for transcending their appellations or varieties. Clos Rougeard. Vatan. d’Auvenay Auxey, perhaps. But nothing quite like Rayas, which is orders of magnitude more revered and expensive than anything else in Chateauneuf

I doubt this premise is true. Is Rayas really more expensive relative to its appellation than Monfortino, Petrus, Romanee-Conti, Coche CC, every Leroy, Screagle, Unico, Keller, Egon Muller, etc. etc. I don’t think so, but if it is (I’m not current on Rayas pricing) it’s a recent thing. It’s true, though, that nobody makes better CdP.

New release appears to go for around $1500. Seems to me that the price has doubled these last couple years. I paid less than half of that for a 2008 about two years ago.

Okay, that’s a big spike. Still cheaper than a Leroy Savigny-les-Beaune, though. So it’s an expensive wine, always has been, but the notion of “nothing quite like” it in reverence or expense sounds rather blinkered.

[Noah_C]

Worth checking out Chapelle de St Théoderic. Interesting wine, if not the cult favorite of Rayas. Also grown on mostly sand. Last time I had it the aroma and flavor was almost pure raspberry. Quite interesting and graceful.

Several recommendations for Chapelle de St Theodoric here. I haven’t tried any of their wines. For those with experience, which bottling would you recommend? Seems like Les Grands Pin and La Guigasse could both be in contention for providing a Rayas-like experience.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

I don’t think being made since 1880 makes you traditional if you make a unique wine. Beaucastel has been around that long as well and I think its high mourvedre content makes it non-traditional. But this is a matter of definition. Has Rayas been made since 1880? I always understood that Albert, who bought the property in 1880 farmed a variety of crops, probably including some grapes, but he wasn’t a winemaker. Rayas was really the creation of his son and the current owner’s grandfather, Louis. I might be wrong about this is most histories I’ve seen are somewhat vague about what went on before Louis. Has anyone seen a bottle from a vintage prior to 1920?

[RyanC]

I doubt this premise is true. Is Rayas really more expensive relative to its appellation than Monfortino, Petrus, Romanee-Conti, Coche CC, every Leroy, Screagle, Unico, Keller, Egon Muller, etc. etc. I don’t think so, but if it is (I’m not current on Rayas pricing) it’s a recent thing. It’s true, though, that nobody makes better CdP.

New release appears to go for around $1500. Seems to me that the price has doubled these last couple years. I paid less than half of that for a 2008 about two years ago.

Okay, that’s a big spike. Still cheaper than a Leroy Savigny-les-Beaune, though. So it’s an expensive wine, always has been, but the notion of “nothing quite like” it in reverence or expense sounds rather blinkered.

I think the premise does mostly stand, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.

With respect to price, Rayas at $1,500+/btl is 3-5x its closest competitors in price (Bonneau Celestins or Cuvee de Capo) and 10-15x nearly all other top-tier CndP. Yes, it’s not as pricey as trophy Burg, but in Burgundy you have Romanee Conti, Leroy Musigny, DRC Monty, and others in the rarified air. In Barolo, you have Monfortino but also Giacosa Red Labels, Bartolo, and Rinaldi. The more I think about it, perhaps Vatan and (especially) Keller G-Max have similar price gaps. D’Auvenay if you drill down to smaller appellations.

More interesting to me is the qualitative gap between Rayas and the rest. If you ask 100 wine geeks what the best CndP is, I suspect a huge % would say Rayas, and you often see Rayas as the lone Southern Rhone wine in a lineup of trophies from other regions. You basically never see that with other CndP.

[Jeff_Leve]

I don’t think being made since 1880 makes you traditional if you make a unique wine. Beaucastel has been around that long as well and I think its high mourvedre content makes it non-traditional. But this is a matter of definition. Has Rayas been made since 1880? I always understood that Albert, who bought the property in 1880 farmed a variety of crops, probably including some grapes, but he wasn’t a winemaker. Rayas was really the creation of his son and the current owner’s grandfather, Louis. I might be wrong about this is most histories I’ve seen are somewhat vague about what went on before Louis. Has anyone seen a bottle from a vintage prior to 1920?

I think the property was a working vineyard in the late 1800s, though I imagine they sold the grapes. I think Louis Reynaud was the first to bottle and sell their own wine and this was prior to the creation of the appellation.

I hope to be there in June. If so, it’s a good question. I’ll ask.

FWIW, Beaucastel is also a traditional estate to me. The blend IMO, does not make an estate traditional or not. It’s their practices.

[Robert.A.Jr]

I don’t think being made since 1880 makes you traditional if you make a unique wine. Beaucastel has been around that long as well and I think its high mourvedre content makes it non-traditional. But this is a matter of definition. Has Rayas been made since 1880? I always understood that Albert, who bought the property in 1880 farmed a variety of crops, probably including some grapes, but he wasn’t a winemaker. Rayas was really the creation of his son and the current owner’s grandfather, Louis. I might be wrong about this is most histories I’ve seen are somewhat vague about what went on before Louis. Has anyone seen a bottle from a vintage prior to 1920?

I think the property was a working vineyard in the late 1800s, though I imagine they sold the grapes. I think Louis Reynaud was the first to bottle and sell their own wine and this was prior to the creation of the appellation.

I hope to be there in June. If so, it’s a good question. I’ll ask.

FWIW, Beaucastel is also a traditional estate to me. The blend IMO, does not make an estate traditional or not. It’s their practices.

I agree on both of those points.

[m_ristev]

New release appears to go for around $1500. Seems to me that the price has doubled these last couple years. I paid less than half of that for a 2008 about two years ago.

Okay, that’s a big spike. Still cheaper than a Leroy Savigny-les-Beaune, though. So it’s an expensive wine, always has been, but the notion of “nothing quite like” it in reverence or expense sounds rather blinkered.

More interesting to me is the qualitative gap between Rayas and the rest. If you ask 100 wine geeks what the best CndP is, I suspect a huge % would say Rayas, and you often see Rayas as the lone Southern Rhone wine in a lineup of trophies from other regions. You basically never see that with other CndP.

how does your last statement support the idea that there is a qualitative gap? in this scenario, implicit bias is a more likely causal factor.

[Keith_Levenberg]

New release appears to go for around $1500. Seems to me that the price has doubled these last couple years. I paid less than half of that for a 2008 about two years ago.

Okay, that’s a big spike. Still cheaper than a Leroy Savigny-les-Beaune, though. So it’s an expensive wine, always has been, but the notion of “nothing quite like” it in reverence or expense sounds rather blinkered.

I think the premise does mostly stand, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.

With respect to price, Rayas at $1,500+/btl is 3-5x its closest competitors in price (Bonneau Celestins or Cuvee de Capo) and 10-15x nearly all other top-tier CndP. Yes, it’s not as pricey as trophy Burg, but in Burgundy you have Romanee Conti, Leroy Musigny, DRC Monty, and others in the rarified air. In Barolo, you have Monfortino but also Giacosa Red Labels, Bartolo, and Rinaldi. The more I think about it, perhaps Vatan and (especially) Keller G-Max have similar price gaps. D’Auvenay if you drill down to smaller appellations.

More interesting to me is the qualitative gap between Rayas and the rest. If you ask 100 wine geeks what the best CndP is, I suspect a huge % would say Rayas, and you often see Rayas as the lone Southern Rhone wine in a lineup of trophies from other regions. You basically never see that with other CndP.

I think you’re drawing some overbroad conclusions from a recent and perhaps temporary blip. Wine-searcher shows the price more than doubled in just the last year. That isn’t unique, it just makes it the latest wine to benefit from a fashion swing (and bigger monetary supply). As for why Rayas and only like 1 or 2 other CDPs (Hommage is another) are socially acceptable entrants in a trophy wine lineup, that is also largely a function of fashion, but it’s also a function of history - CDP was not considered more than a peasant region until recently. There aren’t too many moments you can set your time machine back to and expect to see CDP on the same table as a wine from someone with dukes and duchesses in the family tree. Then Robert Parker took a major liking to it and was more responsible than anyone for elevating the reputation of the region and making his favorites into trophy wines. But if it were mourvedre that had pushed his buttons instead of grenache, then we would be having this thread about Pradeaux or Tempier instead. Either way, though, you will always, by definition, find fewer stars in a country region than in a region packed with historic blue chips. So the fact that Rayas is 5x the price of its neighbors and Lafite-Rothschild isn’t is not a function of Rayas having some special esteem that Lafite lacks, it’s a function of Lafite being one of several Rayases in a region packed with estates that can make wine at the highest level… which Chateauneuf is not. I do understand that leaves unanswered the question of how, exactly, Rayas does pull that off in a region where nobody else does. I think others who drink way more CDP than me have answered that question pretty convincingly. My only point is that this phenomenon isn’t unique to Rayas, and I don’t think we’re in big disagreement there since you’ve noted several other examples.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I don’t think being made since 1880 makes you traditional if you make a unique wine. Beaucastel has been around that long as well and I think its high mourvedre content makes it non-traditional. But this is a matter of definition. Has Rayas been made since 1880? I always understood that Albert, who bought the property in 1880 farmed a variety of crops, probably including some grapes, but he wasn’t a winemaker. Rayas was really the creation of his son and the current owner’s grandfather, Louis. I might be wrong about this is most histories I’ve seen are somewhat vague about what went on before Louis. Has anyone seen a bottle from a vintage prior to 1920?

I think the property was a working vineyard in the late 1800s, though I imagine they sold the grapes. I think Louis Reynaud was the first to bottle and sell their own wine and this was prior to the creation of the appellation.

I hope to be there in June. If so, it’s a good question. I’ll ask.

FWIW, Beaucastel is also a traditional estate to me. The blend IMO, does not make an estate traditional or not. It’s their practices.

Beaucastel pasteurizes their wine. That, alone, provides basis for arguing they’re not traditional. That said, it’s not an argument I’d personally be inclined to make, but — still, who else is pasteurizing their wines in CdP?

[Craig_G]

Beaucastel pasteurizes their wine. That, alone, provides basis for arguing they’re not traditional. That said, it’s not an argument I’d personally be inclined to make, but — still, who else is pasteurizing their wines in CdP?

They pasteurize the grapes, not the wine. There’s another thread about this where it’s discussed at length and compared to Louis Latour where wine is pasteurized. And Beaucastel has done this since 1964.

It seems to me that it might be useful to distinguish between “traditional” and “typical.” Beaucastel is certainly not a typical CdP, just based on the grape mix, but one could argue either way about whether it’s traditional. In one sense it seems almost the most traditional since it really exercises the mix of grapes allowed. With respect to the pasteurization, given that every vintage almost all of us have tasted had this done and their track record of making great, long-aging CdP is far better than most of the others, it’s not clear to me that this is a disqualifier for “traditional.” Certainly not typical, though.

I would make similar arguments about Rayas. It’s not typical but as an icon of great CdP that seems to be true to its history, how is it not traditional?

[larry_schaffer]

Craig,

Great points - and yes, I agree that both of these are not typical at all and therefore would be considered ‘outliers’ when discussing CdP. The relatively unique composition of each of their wines makes them ‘atypical’ as well - which was part of my argument above that when discussing ‘best of CdP’, both of these should be in the list, but so should other producers that are more historically ‘typical’ of the region.

Cheers

[Jonathan_H]

What are some other CdP’s that are 100% grenache grown on sandy soils? I know Domaine de Cristia Vieilles Vignes is one, and while it is always a fantastic bottle, it is not close to the level of Rayas.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Thank you for that clarification, Craig — my memory was a bit spotty on the specifics, apparently. My point/question for Jeff remains the same, however.