I’ve tried my dammedest to like Beaujolais. But I just can’t dig it, despite trying many good names from many vintages. And yet, I love a good passetoutgrains. I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t dislike Gamay: I just don’t like the taste of a wine that’s undergone carbonic maceration.
So who -doesn’t- use carbonic maceration in Beaujolais? I’ve heard that Potel-Aviron doesn’t, but I presume there must be at least a handful of others?
I cant say for sure but both Jadot and Drouhin don’t seem to have those stylistic notes.
Low end 2009 Jadot beaujolais isnt very good IMO though. Havnt tried their 2009 Cru level wines yet.
I seem to recall that Jadot and Brun use very little or no carbonic maceration. Maybe Desvignes too? I’m interested in the answer to this as well. I’m sure there are many others.
Jadot is not carbonic, it’s made like Burgundy.
I would be surprised if Foillard Morgon Cote du Py (my favorite producer and terroir) is carbonic. It tastes quite vinous and complex.
Desvignes and Foillard both use semi-carbonic. I believe Brun does not.
One of the few beaujos I have liked is the Jadot Chateau des Jacques-- now I understand why. Just reinforces my hypothesis.
Im convinced that this wine would 100% fool me in a blind tasting with cote d’or reds.
Foillard is indeed carbonic - as chronicled in this timely blog post: Wine Tasting, Vineyards, in France: Jean Foillard (Beaujolais)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That’s interesting! Like D. Zylberberg, I have assumed that carbonic maceration was at least part of what I don’t like in the tutti frutti genre of Beaujolais. I have also assumed that the floral yeast isolates contributed. In any case, if Foillard practices carbonic, I will cross that off my list.
Keith Levenberg wrote:
Kevin Harvey wrote:
I would be surprised if Foillard Morgon Cote du Py (my favorite producer and terroir) is carbonic. It tastes quite vinous and complex.Foillard is indeed carbonic - as chronicled in this timely blog post: > Wine Tasting, Vineyards, in France: Jean Foillard (Beaujolais)> " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That’s interesting! Like D. Zylberberg, I have assumed that carbonic maceration was at least part of what I don’t like in the tutti frutti genre of Beaujolais. I have also assumed that the floral yeast isolates contributed. In any case, if Foillard practices carbonic, I will cross that off my list.
If its your favorite producer and terroir, why cross it off? Just because you have a philisophical difference with the technique?
Sorry, I meant that I will cross “carbonic” off my list of things that I think I don’t like. Clearly if Foillard does it, I like wines made with this technique.
AFAIK most Beaujolais producers use some form of carbonic maceration at the beginning of the winemaking process but for most the maceration/fermentation is usually referred to as semi-carbonic, part carbonic part conventional, which is how the Lapierres describe that part of their overall winemaking process which is of course marked by other key aspects relating to indigenous yeasts, no/minimal sulphur with no fining and filtration.
I assume the other members of the Gang of 5 like Foillard, Breton and Thevenet would use the same or similar technique although one of the 5, Joseph Chamonard, died in 1990 and the Domaine is run by his daughter Genevieve and her husband Jean-Claude Chanudet and their winemaking may now be different.
Other top winemakers like the Chermettes of Domaine du Vissoux and Jean-Marc Burgaud of the eponymous Domaine are also semi-carbonic across their large range as are Drouhin’s MaVs and Morgons and Alain Coudert’s Fleurie, Clos de la Roilette
On the other hand the conventional Burgundian approach is used by Jadot for some of their top wines including the 5 single vineyard ‘Clos’ MaV wines of Chateau des Jacques and the basic Chateau des Jacques plus the Morgons of Chateau des Lumieres. However their website, although large and comprehensive appears to have some ambivalence and misplaced text with only one entry [that I could find] on the type of vinification of their large range of Beaujolais that appeared unequivocal:
Here is how they variously describe it:
1.Vinification method is the same as the one used for the Grands Crus from Côte d’Or. Grapes are hand-picked and put in small containers (25-30kg). They are then sorted out before being destemmed. Maceration (no carbonic) takes places during 3 to 4 weeks with native yeasts. The wine is partly aged in oak barrels during 10 to 11 months.
2. And another to: In general, we destem the grapes in order to allow them to undergo a vinification according to the traditional method that was practiced during the 19th century [Hmmmm? If that means “like Burgundy today” why not say so?]. In practice, this means fermentation with wild yeasts and maceration periods lasting two to three weeks. [versus 3-4 in 1. above]. Malo-lactic fermentation follows alcoholic fermentation at the beginning of autumn, then half the wine is matured in oak barrels and half in stainless steel.
3. Others refer to: the wine is vinified in closed vats with pumping over, and then aged in oak barrels for 12 months. One part of the grapes are de-stemmed.
Quite a number of others are apparently either experimenting with a Burgundian approach or have started to use it in earnest for at least part of their production.
Potel-Aviron apparently follows a Burgundian route for their Fleuries, Morgons and MaVs and Mommessin [for some of their very big range but most semi-carbonic] while some like Jean-Paul Brun of Terres Dorées [certainly for his top wines including the Cru wines], Louis-Claude Desvignes and Michel Tête are reportedly using Burgundian vinification at least in part.
However what seems to distinguish the best relates to far more than the difference between semi-carbonic and the Burgundian approach: the vineyard work, harvesting, grape handling and sorting, the use of indigenous yeasts, sulphur use and filtration. The use of oak [old to very old usually] is IMO more apparent in e.g. the Jadot wines but not in any way excessively – at least to my taste although I tend to drink them with more age that the others e.g. starting the 2002s for Rochegres and Grand Carquelin currently whereas e.g. 2005 for Lapierre and Foillard although only recently finished the 02s. Still keeping the 2005 Burgaud Morgons though.
I cellar and drink quite a lot of Beaujolais in a wide range of styles but consider the [good] spectrum as being Lapierre and Foillard Morgons at one end and the Jadot Chateau des Jacques MaVs of Grand Carquelin and Rochegres [my favourites of the 5 Clos] and the Morgons [various] of Chateau des Lumieres at the other. In between I put the Fleuries and MaVs of the Chermettes, the Morgons [primarily] of Jean-Marc Burgaud and Coudert’s Fleurie,Clos de la Roilette.
Caveat: while I am confident of the currency of the Jadot [despite the ambivalence in their various descriptions of their winemaking], Lapierre and Foillard information some of the other detail may be out of date although I think a current view would see more rather than less Burgundian type vinification based on the previous developments.
I would appreciate any updates and corrections since I find Beaujolais one of the more difficult regions to keep in touch with particularly on the technical side of the winemaking.
Berry,
Interestingly, when one tastes chez Jadot, they take you through all their grand cru Burgs. before they finish off with these wines. I suspect they are thinking along your lines.
Best, Jim
Pascal Granger (imported by Neal Rosenthal) uses no carbonic maceration. lovely wines.
Thats pretty cool
You have me totally confused.
So 2009 Jadot Chateau des Jacques is at the other/wrong end of the ‘good’ spectrum meaning that it is bad?
Doesn’t taste bad to me, or to another poster…
Paul
I’m pretty sure he meant that they are at opposite ends of a stylistic spectrum while maintaining a uniformly high quality. I would second the notion, if that is in fact what he meant.
You’re right and thanks. That’s what I meant to convey by “the [good] spectrum” and “my favourites” - with all of them in it but reflecting their different styles even if some of the key considerations of the different winemakers -grape quality, native yeasts etc - are the same.