White Burgundy Second Stringers?

[Joshua_Kates]

I’m copying in all three posts that provide Bordeaux-style five-tier rankings for white burgundy producers. Surprising (maybe not?) degree of coincidence. I’ve highlighted in bold divergences, probably missed some. Others should feel free to point out others and I will try to fix. Thanks to all those who have contributed these detailed evaluations. Great resource!

First Growth - Coche Dury, Leflaive, Roulot, Ramonet, PYCM, D’Auvennay/Domaine Leroy
Second Growth - Sauzet, Bernard Moreau, Raveneau, Dauvissat, Carillon, Ampeau, Drouhin, Bouchard
Third Growth - Niellon, A Jobard, Bonneau du Martray, Pernot, Lafon (rate them this high because they are good when young, but premox), Pierre Morey, Faiveley, Domaine de Lambrays, Buisson-Charles, Marc Colin
Fourth Growth - Dublere (maybe third), Lamy, Christian Moreau, Chapelle, Villaine, Mestre Michelot
Fifth Growth - Louis Latour, Michel, Gambal, Jadot, Fevre, Fontaine-Gagnard, Matrot

First Tier Producers – Coche-Dury, D’Auvennay/Domaine Leroy, Colin-Morey, Ramonet [grand crus only, some premox problems on 1ers and village wines], Domaine Romanée Conti, Raveneau, Roulot
Second Tier Producers – Henri Boillot [some premox problems], Bouchard Pere [DIAM starting in 2009], Jacques Carillon, R&V Dauvissat [some premox problems], Domaine Leflaive [former first tier producer: major quality and premox problems 2005 to 2008+; DIAM starting in 2014], Jean-Marc Pillot, Sauzet [some premox problems]
Third Tier Producers – Bachelet-Monnot, Billaud-Simon, Michel Bouzereau, Buisson-Charles, Marc Colin [some premox problems], Vincent Dancer [some past premox problems], Faiveley, Henri Germain, Girardin [premox problems on pre-2004 vintages], Lafon [former 2d tier producer with frequent premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Latour-Giraud, Morey-Coffinet, Marc Morey, Thomas Morey, Niellon and Pernot.
Fourth Tier Producers - Ampeau, Jean-Claude Bachelet, Roche de Bellene [DIAM starting 2011], Bonneau du Martray [frequent premox problems], Fabien Coche, Dublere, Arnaud Ente, Javillier [DIAM starting 2009], Hubert Lamy [some premox problems], Domaine Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Leroux, Montille [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009], Bernard Moreau, Vincent & Sophie Morey, Paul Pillot, Piuze and Chateau de Puligny Montrachet [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009].
Fifth Tier Producers –Bize, Francois Carillon, J.N. Gagnard [some premox problems], Antoine Jobard [some premox problems], Laroche, Vincent Latour, Maison Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Long-Depaquit, Louis Michel, Christian Moreau [some premox problems], Pierre Morey, F&L Pillot [DIAM starting 2010], Ponsot, Pousse D’Or, Prieur [after 2009 only; some premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Rapet, Remoissenet, Baron Thenard and Vougeraie.

First Tier: Coche Dury, Roulot, Pierry-Yves Colin-Morey, Raveneau, d’Auvenay
Second Tier: Ramonet, Vincent Dauvissat, Henri Boillot, Domaine Leflaive, Arnaud Ente
Third Tier: Lafon, Lamy, Guffens-Heynen, Sauzet, Bonneau du Martray
Fourth Tier: Dancer, Jacques Carillon, Paul Pillot, Antoine Jobard, Dureuil-Janthial
Fifth Tier: Bachelet Monnot, Saumaize-Michelin, Tribut, Francois Carillon, Paul Pernot

[Robert_Grenley]

@Don Cornwell

@Howard Cooper

I am interested in the reactions of others to it - adding producers I have left out, suggesting changes in placement of producers. I was hoping by the list to better frame this discussion and help it become even more of a good learning exercise for all of us (it has already been quite interesting). Meant to be a start, not an end point.

Howard

I decided to take up your challenge. So after some effort to compile, and trying to add some useful commentary on premox issues, here’s my list:

First Tier Producers – Coche-Dury, D’Auvennay/Domaine Leroy, Colin-Morey, Ramonet [grand crus only, some premox problems on 1ers and village wines], Domaine Romanée Conti, Raveneau, Roulot

Second Tier Producers – Henri Boillot [some premox problems], Bouchard Pere [DIAM starting in 2009], Jacques Carillon, R&V Dauvissat [some premox problems], Domaine Leflaive [former first tier producer: major quality and premox problems 2005 to 2008+; DIAM starting in 2014], Jean-Marc Pillot, Sauzet [some premox problems]

Third Tier Producers – Bachelet-Monnot, Billaud-Simon, Michel Bouzereau, Buisson-Charles, Marc Colin [some premox problems], Vincent Dancer [some past premox problems], Faiveley, Henri Germain, Girardin [premox problems on pre-2004 vintages], Lafon [former 2d tier producer with frequent premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Latour-Giraud, Morey-Coffinet, Marc Morey, Thomas Morey, Niellon and Pernot.

Fourth Tier Producers - Ampeau, Jean-Claude Bachelet, Roche de Bellene [DIAM starting 2011], Bonneau du Martray [frequent premox problems], Fabien Coche, Dublere, Arnaud Ente, Javillier [DIAM starting 2009], Hubert Lamy [some premox problems], Domaine Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Leroux, Montille [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009], Bernard Moreau, Vincent & Sophie Morey, Paul Pillot, Piuze and Chateau de Puligny Montrachet [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009].

Fifth Tier Producers –Bize, Francois Carillon, J.N. Gagnard [some premox problems], Antoine Jobard [some premox problems], Laroche, Vincent Latour, Maison Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Long-Depaquit, Louis Michel, Christian Moreau [some premox problems], Pierre Morey, F&L Pillot [DIAM starting 2010], Ponsot, Pousse D’Or, Prieur [after 2009 only; some premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Rapet, Remoissenet, Baron Thenard and Vougeraie.

PRODUCERS NOT RANKED:

The Premox Untouchables: Blain-Gagnard, Delagrange-Bachelet, Droin, Fontaine-Gagnard, Jadot and Matrot. These producers have such consistently bad premox performance at 7 years or more that my advice is that you should NEVER buy a bottle for your cellar until you know their premox problems have been solved. Note: Jadot and Droin began using DIAM with the 2011 vintage.

Wines Not Ranked with Frequent to Very Frequent Premox Problems in vintages 2004 to 2008: Drouhin, William Fevre [DIAM starting in 2010], Louis Latour, Maltroye, Mikulski and Le Moine. Buyer beware on these produders! Similar warnings apply to Domaine Leflaive vintages from 2005 through 2013 [DIAM starting 2014] and all Lafon vintages prior to 2013 [DIAM starting 2013]]

Other Producers Not Currently Ranked: D’Arduhy, Guy Amiot [past serious premox problems]; Pierre Andre, Ballot-Millot, Jean-Claude Belland, Roger Belland [DIAM starting 2009], Bichot, Jean-Marc Boillot, Boisson-Vadot, Boyer-Martenot, Bouard-Bonnefoy, Philippe Bouzereau, Chandon de Briailles, Brocard [past premox problems; DIAM starting 2012], La Chablisienne, Champy, Chanson [DIAM starting 2013], Alain Chavy, De Cherisey, Bruno Clair, Denis Clair, Clos de la Chapelle, Coche-Bizouard, Bruno Colin, Philippe Colin, Colin-Deleger [past serious premox problems], Michel Coutoux.[past serious premox problems], Daniel Dampt [90% under DIAM starting 2014], Vincent Dampt, Darviot-Perrin, Jean Dauvissat, Bernard Defaix, Dubreuil-Fontaine, Benoit Ente, Fichet, Follin-Arbelet, Gambal, Jean-Michel Gaunoux, Grivault, Guyon, Heitz-Lochardet, Juillot [past serious premox problems], Domaine de Lambrays, Chateau de Meursault, Michelot, Jean-Marc Morey, Pacalet, Domaine du Pavillon, Pernot-Belicard, Picq, Pinson, Prudhon, Rollin Pere, Servin, Tollot-Beaut, Verget [past serious premox problems].

Don,
You mention a number of producers who have switched to DIAM but not sure if that means up and down their lineup or just at their lower levels. For most it has been too soon to evaluate whether it has made a difference. A couple have done so in 2009 including Bouchard which may be possible to evaluate…so, have you or anyone tasted any premox wines from any of these producers under DIAM?

Perhaps too abruptly, but I used to work hard to find and pay lots of dollars for a precious few bottles of Roulot MP and MC, but had premox issues in 96 and a bit later so gave up. Had nothing but premox with JM Pillot in 2000 so gave up.

[J_e_s_s_e_C]

Thanks all! I’m fairly new to white burgundy but also find a lot of enjoyment in it. So this thread (and the previous buying guide) are super helpful.

One follow up Q: In the various threads where premox comes up, there are often posts about how white burgundy is a flawed product that no longer justifies the cost. My question is, for the producers listed with “some” but not “frequent” or “major” problems (e.g., Ramonet 1ers, Dauvissat, Lamy), is there a price that would make you bite? Put another way, is there a point where you feel like the discount adequately factors in the risk? If so, what is it?

[Don_Cornwell]

@Robert Grenley

Don,
You mention a number of producers who have switched to DIAM but not sure if that means up and down their lineup or just at their lower levels. For most it has been too soon to evaluate whether it has made a difference. A couple have done so in 2009 including Bouchard which may be possible to evaluate…so, have you or anyone tasted any premox wines from any of these producers under DIAM?

Perhaps too abruptly, but I used to work hard to find and pay lots of dollars for a precious few bottles of Roulot MP and MC, but had premox issues in 96 and a bit later so gave up. Had nothing but premox with JM Pillot in 2000 so gave up.

Robert:

The producers that I have listed have switched across the board to the best of my knowledge. There were a few other producers that I didn’t list who have switched only some of their lower level bottlings to DIAM. For the full list, see the first “News” article on the Oxidized Burgundies wiki site. http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/ Only one producer that I’m aware of – Fevre – implemented DIAM while initially excluding its grand crus. In 2009 Fevre used DIAM for its lower level and 1er Chablis while using traditional cork for its grand crus. But starting in 2010, all of the Fevre Chablis were bottled under DIAM.

Thus far I have tried only a few bottles of whites bottled with DIAM (and a couple of California pinot noirs), including a handful of 2009 Bouchards. But I have not tasted any white burgundy at age five or later closed with DIAM. The wines I tasted were bright and clean and there were no unexpected aromas or flavors. We will be tasting the 2009 whites at the next set of vintage assessment and premox check dinners this coming February and March. There are four producers who made the switch in the 2009 vintage (Bouchard, Montille/Chateau de Puligny Montrachet, Roger Belland and Javillier). I know we will have some wines from the first two for sure. I’m hoping I’ll be able to find some well-cellared Belland Criots and Javillier Corton Charlemagne to include by then.

But it’s going to take a while before I’ll feel I’m really in a position to assess the impact of DIAM. Bouchard has been one of the more problem-free producers (because Mr. Prost was meticulous about selecting, inspecting and weighing the corks used). Montille has had some significant oxidation problems in the past (I experienced several from 1996 through 2002, but experienced no problems with 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008) and may be a slightly better indicator. Certainly things will get more informative when we see the 2010 Fevre grand crus, because that’s a producer that’s had oxidation problems in virtually every vintage.

The real test will come once we have had two or three vintages from the biggest offenders reach maturity, including Fevre [2010 vintage], Jadot [2011], Droin [2011], Lafon [2013] and even Domaine Leflaive [2014], whose name I never thought I would associate with premox.

As for the two producers that you mentioned, I have certainly heard about some bottles of prematurely oxidized 1996 Roulot MP, but I did not experience any premox among the four bottles that I owned. It was an amazing wine. As for Jean-Marc Pillot, yes he did have some premox in the run from the 1996 to 2000 vintages, but 2000 was the last vintage I’m aware of where there are any problems. One of the four 2000 Chevaliers that I owned was oxidized (in 2010). But in 2002 I owned three different wines from Pillot (with four bottles of each) and none were ever oxidized or advanced. I’ve owned the Pillot Chevy and Chassagne Vergers Clos St. Marc in all decent vintages since then and have experienced no problems. By the consensus of the burgundy producers themselves, Pillot is the best producer in Chassagne and he has been for some time.

[Robert_Grenley]

@Don Cornwell

@Robert Grenley

Don,
You mention a number of producers who have switched to DIAM but not sure if that means up and down their lineup or just at their lower levels. For most it has been too soon to evaluate whether it has made a difference. A couple have done so in 2009 including Bouchard which may be possible to evaluate…so, have you or anyone tasted any premox wines from any of these producers under DIAM?

Perhaps too abruptly, but I used to work hard to find and pay lots of dollars for a precious few bottles of Roulot MP and MC, but had premox issues in 96 and a bit later so gave up. Had nothing but premox with JM Pillot in 2000 so gave up.

Robert:

The producers that I have listed have switched across the board to the best of my knowledge. There were a few other producers that I didn’t list who have switched only some of their lower level bottlings to DIAM. For the full list, see the first “News” article on the Oxidized Burgundies wiki site. http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/ Only one producer that I’m aware of – Fevre – implemented DIAM while initially excluding its grand crus. In 2009 Fevre used DIAM for its lower level and 1er Chablis while using traditional cork for its grand crus. But starting in 2010, all of the Fevre Chablis were bottled under DIAM.

Thus far I have tried only a few bottles of whites bottled with DIAM (and a couple of California pinot noirs), including a handful of 2009 Bouchards. But I have not tasted any white burgundy at age five or later closed with DIAM. The wines I tasted were bright and clean and there were no unexpected aromas or flavors. We will be tasting the 2009 whites at the next set of vintage assessment and premox check dinners this coming February and March. There are four producers who made the switch in the 2009 vintage (Bouchard, Montille/Chateau de Puligny Montrachet, Roger Belland and Javillier). I know we will have some wines from the first two for sure. I’m hoping I’ll be able to find some well-cellared Belland Criots and Javillier Corton Charlemagne to include by then.

But it’s going to take a while before I’ll feel I’m really in a position to assess the impact of DIAM. Bouchard has been one of the more problem-free producers (because Mr. Prost was meticulous about selecting, inspecting and weighing the corks used). Montille has had some significant oxidation problems in the past (I experienced several from 1996 through 2002, but experienced no problems with 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008) and may be a slightly better indicator. Certainly things will get more informative when we see the 2010 Fevre grand crus, because that’s a producer that’s had oxidation problems in virtually every vintage.

The real test will come once we have had two or three vintages from the biggest offenders reach maturity, including Fevre [2010 vintage], Jadot [2011], Droin [2011], Lafon [2013] and even Domaine Leflaive [2014], whose name I never thought I would associate with premox.

As for the two producers that you mentioned, I have certainly heard about some bottles of prematurely oxidized 1996 Roulot MP, but I did not experience any premox among the four bottles that I owned. It was an amazing wine. As for Jean-Marc Pillot, yes he did have some premox in the run from the 1996 to 2000 vintages, but 2000 was the last vintage I’m aware of where there any problems. One of the four 2000 Chevaliers that I owned was oxidized (in 2010). But in 2002 I owned three different wines from Pillot (with four bottles of each) and none were ever oxidized or advanced. I’ve owned the Pillot Chevy and Chassagne Vergers Clos St. Marc in all decent vintages since then and have experienced no problems. By the consensus of the burgundy producers themselves, Pillot is the best producer in Chassagne and he has been for some time.

Great information…thank you, Don.
Maybe, just maybe, I will be able to buy and age white Burgundy again before I die.

[Ian_Fitzsimmons]

Odd to see Dubleure in fourth tier: Didn’t he start up after the biggest wave of prem-ox had already washed over the region?

Also, I think L. Michel is better than fifth-rank producer. But I lack the depth/breadth of experience drinking white Burg that Don, Howard and others demonstrate.

Unrelated, I think Robert P. may have meant to write “Lamy,” not “Ramy.” I was surprised to see Lamy ranked low, as well. His red 1er has been delicious and educational (of course, red is not white, etc.).

[Robert_Pavlovich]

@Ian Fitzsimmons

Odd to see Dubleure in fourth tier: Didn’t he start up after the biggest wave of prem-ox had already washed over the region?

Also, I think L. Michel is better than fifth-rank producer. But I lack the depth/breadth of experience drinking white Burg that Don, Howard and others demonstrate.

Unrelated, I think Robert P. may have meant to write “Lamy,” not “Ramy.” I was surprised to see Lamy ranked low, as well. His red 1er has been delicious and educational (of course, red is not white, etc.).

Correct sir, thanks for pointing that out.

Had a couple Dublere whites from '13 recently, the Meursault Charmes and Chenevottes. The Chenevottes was tasted against the Bernard Moreau same vintage/vineyard and it was pretty clear to me that Moreau was a couple tiers above Dublere. There was an extra level of refinement and elegance in the Moreau, while both Dublere’s came across as fatter, and more fruity than the vintage would’ve suggested (2013).

Curious as to where Benjamin Leroux would rank. I’ve really enjoyed some of his whites. Maybe 3rd tier with a good chance to move up as he’s still fairly young.

[Steve_Brickley]

We had the 2014 Tribut Montmains and the Beauroy tonight with the Montmains being the standout. At US$40 per these were outstanding deals to hit California. Now 2014 wasn’t exactly a challenging year, but still, tangy citrus, light touch on SO2, no oak noticeable, acid bite. Beautiful wines.

[Howard_Cooper]

Read this thread again this morning when Steve brought it back. Great thread and one that I have nominated for the Hall of Fame. Want to be able to get easy access to it.

[Steve_Brickley]

Howard, I like these types of posts. One of my favorites is the year by year beaujolais which is more specific but still general enough. Besides, a US$28 high quality beauj is enchanting. I try to find an existing post that applies before starting my own, especially when I have a producer name I can search. I figure with our audience it has already been written about or at least started. Chablis is our family favorite white by a long shot and 2014 has such quality across the producers. While I never wish ill will on vintners, I had accumulated so much 14 Chablis that I was relieved that 15 was more of a selective year limiting my purchases.

[dcornutt]

Thomas Morey is producing some of the best white burgundy of anyone right now.

[Jayson_Cohen]

@Steve Brickley

We had the 2014 Tribut Montmains and the Beauroy tonight with the Montmains being the standout. At US$40 per these were outstanding deals to hit California. Now 2014 wasn’t exactly a challenging year, but still, tangy citrus, light touch on SO2, no oak noticeable, acid bite. Beautiful wines.

I like Tribut very much as well although I haven’t bought since the 2010s when I got a half-case of Beauroy at $25 a bottle on special. That wine is also drinking very well now. Starting to round out a little bit but still lemon/lemon curd.

[Dave_Nerland]

@m. ristev

arnaud ente is no way second string, not to mention his ex cellar prices are higher than coche

I would think Arnaud Ente would be in the first tier, IMO his wines have been getting better and from my understanding even harder to find in France than Coche. Would like to compare Roulot Corton Charlemagne to Coche Corton Charlemagne. My guess, Coche would win.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Don Cornwell

@Robert Grenley

Don,
You mention a number of producers who have switched to DIAM but not sure if that means up and down their lineup or just at their lower levels. For most it has been too soon to evaluate whether it has made a difference. A couple have done so in 2009 including Bouchard which may be possible to evaluate…so, have you or anyone tasted any premox wines from any of these producers under DIAM?

Perhaps too abruptly, but I used to work hard to find and pay lots of dollars for a precious few bottles of Roulot MP and MC, but had premox issues in 96 and a bit later so gave up. Had nothing but premox with JM Pillot in 2000 so gave up.

Robert:

The producers that I have listed have switched across the board to the best of my knowledge. There were a few other producers that I didn’t list who have switched only some of their lower level bottlings to DIAM. For the full list, see the first “News” article on the Oxidized Burgundies wiki site. http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/ Only one producer that I’m aware of – Fevre – implemented DIAM while initially excluding its grand crus. In 2009 Fevre used DIAM for its lower level and 1er Chablis while using traditional cork for its grand crus. But starting in 2010, all of the Fevre Chablis were bottled under DIAM.

Thus far I have tried only a few bottles of whites bottled with DIAM (and a couple of California pinot noirs), including a handful of 2009 Bouchards. But I have not tasted any white burgundy at age five or later closed with DIAM. The wines I tasted were bright and clean and there were no unexpected aromas or flavors. We will be tasting the 2009 whites at the next set of vintage assessment and premox check dinners this coming February and March. There are four producers who made the switch in the 2009 vintage (Bouchard, Montille/Chateau de Puligny Montrachet, Roger Belland and Javillier). I know we will have some wines from the first two for sure. I’m hoping I’ll be able to find some well-cellared Belland Criots and Javillier Corton Charlemagne to include by then.

But it’s going to take a while before I’ll feel I’m really in a position to assess the impact of DIAM. Bouchard has been one of the more problem-free producers (because Mr. Prost was meticulous about selecting, inspecting and weighing the corks used). Montille has had some significant oxidation problems in the past (I experienced several from 1996 through 2002, but experienced no problems with 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008) and may be a slightly better indicator. Certainly things will get more informative when we see the 2010 Fevre grand crus, because that’s a producer that’s had oxidation problems in virtually every vintage.

The real test will come once we have had two or three vintages from the biggest offenders reach maturity, including Fevre [2010 vintage], Jadot [2011], Droin [2011], Lafon [2013] and even Domaine Leflaive [2014], whose name I never thought I would associate with premox.

As for the two producers that you mentioned, I have certainly heard about some bottles of prematurely oxidized 1996 Roulot MP, but I did not experience any premox among the four bottles that I owned. It was an amazing wine. As for Jean-Marc Pillot, yes he did have some premox in the run from the 1996 to 2000 vintages, but 2000 was the last vintage I’m aware of where there are any problems. One of the four 2000 Chevaliers that I owned was oxidized (in 2010). But in 2002 I owned three different wines from Pillot (with four bottles of each) and none were ever oxidized or advanced. I’ve owned the Pillot Chevy and Chassagne Vergers Clos St. Marc in all decent vintages since then and have experienced no problems. By the consensus of the burgundy producers themselves, Pillot is the best producer in Chassagne and he has been for some time.

Another data point on DIAM. I recently opened a 2015 Bernard Moreau Bourgogne Blanc and it was closed using DIAM 5. Don’t know what they do with the rest of their wines.

[billnanson]

@Don Cornwell

Only one producer that I’m aware of – Fevre – implemented DIAM while initially excluding its grand crus. In 2009 Fevre used DIAM for its lower level and 1er Chablis while using traditional cork for its grand crus. But starting in 2010, all of the Fevre Chablis were bottled under DIAM.

Yes on 2010 for the whole range - but they actually moved the villages Chablis to DIAM, already in 2006.