Insufficient experience with Boillot.
Michel Bouzereau in Meursault is a name to watch.
So difficult with white Burgs…
Specific inconsistency
Given both Leflaive and Comte Lafon have had bad remox reports, not sure why one is demoted and not the other one. Any progress on premo issue at these producers?
Howard
I decided to take up your challenge. So after some effort to compile, and trying to add some useful commentary on premox issues, here’s my list:
First Tier Producers – Coche-Dury, D’Auvennay/Domaine Leroy, Colin-Morey, Ramonet [grand crus only, some premox problems on 1ers and village wines], Domaine Romanée Conti, Raveneau, Roulot
Second Tier Producers – Henri Boillot [some premox problems], Bouchard Pere [DIAM starting in 2009], Jacques Carillon, R&V Dauvissat [some premox problems], Domaine Leflaive [former first tier producer: major quality and premox problems 2005 to 2008+; DIAM starting in 2014], Jean-Marc Pillot, Sauzet [some premox problems]
Third Tier Producers – Bachelet-Monnot, Billaud-Simon, Michel Bouzereau, Buisson-Charles, Marc Colin [some premox problems], Vincent Dancer [some past premox problems], Faiveley, Henri Germain, Girardin [premox problems on pre-2004 vintages], Lafon [former 2d tier producer with frequent premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Latour-Giraud, Morey-Coffinet, Marc Morey, Thomas Morey, Niellon and Pernot.
Fourth Tier Producers - Ampeau, Jean-Claude Bachelet, Roche de Bellene [DIAM starting 2011], Bonneau du Martray [frequent premox problems], Fabien Coche, Dublere, Arnaud Ente, Javillier [DIAM starting 2009], Hubert Lamy [some premox problems], Domaine Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Leroux, Montille [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009], Bernard Moreau, Vincent & Sophie Morey, Paul Pillot, Piuze and Chateau de Puligny Montrachet [some past premox problems; DIAM starting 2009].
Fifth Tier Producers –Bize, Francois Carillon, J.N. Gagnard [some premox problems], Antoine Jobard [some premox problems], Laroche, Vincent Latour, Maison Olivier Leflaive [DIAM starting 2012], Long-Depaquit, Louis Michel, Christian Moreau [some premox problems], Pierre Morey, F&L Pillot [DIAM starting 2010], Ponsot, Pousse D’Or, Prieur [after 2009 only; some premox problems; DIAM starting 2013], Rapet, Remoissenet, Baron Thenard and Vougeraie.
PRODUCERS NOT RANKED:
The Premox Untouchables: Blain-Gagnard, Delagrange-Bachelet, Droin, Fontaine-Gagnard, Jadot and Matrot. These producers have such consistently bad premox performance at 7 years or more that my advice is that you should NEVER buy a bottle for your cellar until you know their premox problems have been solved. Note: Jadot and Droin began using DIAM with the 2011 vintage.
Wines Not Ranked with Frequent to Very Frequent Premox Problems in vintages 2004 to 2008: Drouhin, William Fevre [DIAM starting in 2010], Louis Latour, Maltroye, Mikulski and Le Moine. Buyer beware on these produders! Similar warnings apply to Domaine Leflaive vintages from 2005 through 2013 [DIAM starting 2014] and all Lafon vintages prior to 2013 [DIAM starting 2013]]
Other Producers Not Currently Ranked: D’Arduhy, Guy Amiot [past serious premox problems]; Pierre Andre, Ballot-Millot, Jean-Claude Belland, Roger Belland [DIAM starting 2009], Bichot, Jean-Marc Boillot, Boisson-Vadot, Boyer-Martenot, Bouard-Bonnefoy, Philippe Bouzereau, Chandon de Briailles, Brocard [past premox problems; DIAM starting 2012], La Chablisienne, Champy, Chanson [DIAM starting 2013], Alain Chavy, De Cherisey, Bruno Clair, Denis Clair, Clos de la Chapelle, Coche-Bizouard, Bruno Colin, Philippe Colin, Colin-Deleger [past serious premox problems], Michel Coutoux.[past serious premox problems], Daniel Dampt [90% under DIAM starting 2014], Vincent Dampt, Darviot-Perrin, Jean Dauvissat, Bernard Defaix, Dubreuil-Fontaine, Benoit Ente, Fichet, Follin-Arbelet, Gambal, Jean-Michel Gaunoux, Grivault, Guyon, Heitz-Lochardet, Juillot [past serious premox problems], Domaine de Lambrays, Chateau de Meursault, Michelot, Jean-Marc Morey, Pacalet, Domaine du Pavillon, Pernot-Belicard, Picq, Pinson, Prudhon, Rollin Pere, Servin, Tollot-Beaut, Verget [past serious premox problems].
Thanks Don! Very helpful.
For the untouchables, what age do you suggest they should be drunk? (I mean are they better very young or would 4-5 years give them some extra?
No love for Tribut? They were my go to Chablis producer for a while for the combination of price and quality.
Great list.
My attempt (some estates I have only a little experience with, Premox partly taken into account, tried to limit myself to five per tier, reflects my personal taste rather than being a list of the most highly regarded producers, consistency accross the portfolio of a producer taken into account positively):
First Tier: Coche Dury, Roulot, Pierry-Yves Colin-Morey, Raveneau, d’Auvenay
Second Tier: Ramonet, Vincent Dauvissat, Henri Boillot, Domaine Leflaive, Arnaud Ente
Third Tier: Lafon, Lamy, Guffens-Heynen, Sauzet, Bonneau du Martray
Fourth Tier: Dancer, Jacques Carillon, Paul Pillot, Antoine Jobard, Dureuil-Janthial
Fifth Tier: Bachelet Monnot, Saumaize-Michelin, Tribut, Francois Carillon, Paul Pernot
Don,
That’s a really good list. My only comment is that I think tier 1 should be split with coche and d’auvenay in a distinct tier on their own.
Dan
A little surprised to see Lamy ranked so modestly by you experienced gents. I suppose their holdings could be part of the reason, mostly know for St. Aubin 1ers and just a tiny bit of GC that hardly anyone drinks. Also seems pre-mox has hit them harder than most in the past. Would it be fair to say that if they are in the 4th tier currently, they are one with an arrow pointing up?
Except that Roulot MP is so good it is often better than many of the Coche that I’ve tried (never had Coche CC).
I’m the opposite of Rauno E. I prefer Roulot MP to Sauzet, Boillot, and even PYCM. And I’m a big fan of PYCM.
Fred,
I agree re roulot’s perrieres. Indeed, I think they’re really good across the range, as is pycm. However, Coche and d’Auvenay are typically spellbinding in my experience in a way the others in tier 1 simply aren’t. Moreover, if you look like for like (i.e. Coche perrieres or cc and/or d’auvenay criots vs roulot’s perrieres) I think there’s a discernible difference.
Dan
Maybe just personal preference but when I’ve had coche mp and roulot mp head to head blind, the roulot is always the group winner.
![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
I had Roulot in my top group.
Don,
Thanks for the list. Very comprehensive. I think we really disagreed on three producers. I guess I like Bernard Moreau more than you do. I really do like their wines.
But, it is the other two I really wanted to ask about. I was surprised you had Drouhin unranked. I have very much enjoyed their whites over the years. Is your low rating due to premox or other things or both. I will say that I have not had any premoxed Drouhins but I have somewhat given up on longer aging of white Burgs.
Second, is Ampeau. I ranked them very highly because over the last few years some of the very best older wines I have had (pre-premox (before 1995) were Ampeau [when people start talking about Meursault Perrieres, well my favorite over the last few years was a 1993 from Ampeau]. But, maybe I am giving them too much of a pass because I really don’t taste or see their newer wines and I guess in some ways I am comparing apples and oranges - older wines from them vs. post 1995 wines from everyone else. Curious as to your thoughts.
Oops. Sorry. I meant Rauno E.
You know what they say, white guys look alike ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
Fine. I was just confused.
Howard, confusion was on my part.
Roulot being top tier in our opinions is no confusion.
Cheers.
Been meaning to get back to this thread; many great suggestions. Thanks to all. In the meantime, fwiw
Schneider’s in D.C. (they ship) has the Dublere 2011 Domaine Dublere Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Chenevottes on sale. (No affiliation, and I am not ITB in any case.)
Howard:
To explain on the producers you asked about:
Bernard Moreau: I give a lot of credit to Moreau from a premox perspective. They have done a very good job there avoiding premox. I find the Moreau wines to be decent wines and generally “correct” for the terroir, but they are seldom exciting wines to me. At the grand cru level (Batard and Chevalier) Moreau seems to consistently under-achieve. Both Jean-Marc Pillot and Bernard Moreau are principally Chassagne producers, but I find that there is a quantum difference in quality between the two when it comes to Chassagne. Jean-Marc Pillot produces the top cuvee from virtually every Chassagne vineyard he owns and Moreau never gets near that level of performance for me.
Ampeau: Like you, I have had some really excellent older Ampeau Meursault Perrieres that truly defied the age expectations of everyone at the table when served blind. (The 1983 and 1990 MPs were particularly memorable.) But I have also tasted some Ampeau wines (e.g. Puligny Combettes) which, while they were still alive in the sense of not being oxidized, just weren’t very interesting – just lean, with some SO2 aromas, and in a few cases slightly mean. My sense of it, without first hand knowledge since I’ve never communicated with Ampeau, is that he doses the hell out of wine with levels of free SO2 that would be considered totally unacceptable by other producers – even the ones like Jacques Carillon that use very high levels of free SO2. That forces Ampeau to wait a decade or more before releasing his wines. The wines live a very long time for sure.
Drouhin: When I started drinking white burgundy back in 1979, Drouhin and Marc Morey were the principal wines that I bought. I have two issues with Drouhin. First, the Drouhin Montrachet de la Guiche has been one of the most consistently advanced or oxidized wines over the last several “Mostly Montrachet” dinners. (The one notable exception was the 2007.) Second, I have found that Drouhin whites consistently under-perform versus the better producers in each appellation they produce. The only exception I can think of in recent memory was the 2008 Corton Charlemagne, which surprised everyone at the 2008 dinner series. I like the top Drouhin reds a lot (though not the pricing from 2010 onward), but it’s hard for me to understand how Drouhin manages to sell much white wine.
Interestingly, I had a 1982 Combettes last January (labeled Potel, but Envoyer said it was made by Ampeau) that was truly outstanding.