Thanks all… and yes, I’m intentionally being a bit provocative. The reason I’ve highlighted this particular bit is that it seems like the judgment around what makes Huet great and/or comparing it to other producers has revolved around the dry wines rather than the entirety of their portfolio. That’s not to say that Loire estates that only produce dry wines are lesser, although I can see that some might try to advance that argument. Their strength across the portfolio, and (for me) especially the off-dry and sweet offerings are what makes them world class, although I’ve also had world class Secs (but only with my wife).
That being said, highlighting new and upcoming producers is a good thing… particularly (for me) if their offerings are across a range of styles. Just as with Riesling, I’d be disappointed to lose some world class wines due to the market impact of what I see as a somewhat misplaced focus on dry wines to the exclusion of other styles.
I’m going to approach this thread the same way I do the Loire Red thread: as a meeting place for folks to discuss white Loire wines. If this thread is restricted to the square peg - round hole “Classification of Loire Whites” topic, and the participation is further whittled-down to only those who have experience drinking said wines with 20 or 30 years on them, and the participation is further whittled-down to those who have extensive such experience, then we’re going to be left with a very boring, inactive, and significantly less-fun thread. I would encourage others to join me in approaching this thread as a general White Wines of the Loire conversation.
That having been said, I’ll chime-in with some of my own opinions in a little bit.
I really just started the thread to hear people’s thoughts about Loire white wines in general. Lists can be fun, but as StevenB and other posters noted, Loire white wines are so sprawling and huge, it’s really close to impossible to “classify” it – though trying to do it can inspire some interesting conversation.
And I have certainly learned a lot reading all of the posts for far in this thread (especially people’s thoughts about new producers in Anjou and the discussion about the different terroirs in the Loire).
I’m looking forward to reading and seeing how this thread develops!
Correct, the taxonomy will always be difficult, if for no other reason than different levels of residual sugar in wine coming from the same vineyard. What does one do with Cuvée Constance? Hors catégorie, one must assume. Has anyone mentioned Clos Baudoin yet?
I couldn’t agree more - it was the whole reason I started the red one in the first place. This is something I would like to see more of on WB. Individual tasting notes are quickly lost and forgotten, whereas grouping them in a discussion thread like this one means they can be easily referenced in the future. Of course one can use the search button but it is long and fastidious. For me, the advantage also over looking up a wine on CT, for example, is that people use their real names here - I can never remember what most people’s CT handles are, so I never know if a note is by someone whose taste I know something about or not.
If anyone is in the SF Bay Area and wants to open up some old Loire whites, I’ve acquired several bottles of ~30 year old Loire whites that I’m very curious to try. I’ve only ever had Huet of that age, and some 15 year old Chidaine. It’s about as geeky of a tasting as it gets this side of Otto Forsberg, so most of these wines are not something that would ordinarily get opened!
The wines include
'85 Huet Le Mont Moelleux
'90 Deletang Montlouis-sur-Loire Les Petits Boulay
'90 Deletang Montlouis-sur-Loire Les Petits Boulay Moelleux
'90 Baumard Savennieres Trie Speciale
'89 Domaine Liards Montlouis-sur-Loire Vendages Tardives
Apologies in advance if I’ve irritated anyone for posting here and not in Offlines, but this is where the Loire white geek eyeballs are landing. Can PM me if interested!
On that topic, I drunk two Anjou Les Gats 2014 from Patrick Baudouin this year and both were fantastic. Quite ripe fruits and starting to get this aged honeyed quality of chenin but very nice acidity and saline finish. Bottles didn’t last long.
Are we keeping the topic on dry whites ? cause mmm off-dry and sweet chenin are also great.
I have wines from Clos de la Meslerie to taste on my deck. It’s Vouvray, from a small vineyard (organic, nature etc.) made by Peter Hahn, a American winemaker. I really like his approach (the anti-Huet, also I’m also fan of Huet) : he does only one sparkling and one still wine per year, and it will either by a dry, off-dry or sweet wine depending on the vintage. So 2015 and 2018 are Moelleux (sweet), 2016 off-dry and 2017 and 2019 are dry. I’ll poste a note on the 2016 off-dry soon-ish.
That’s a tough question, because it’s great on release, yet so disastrously prone to premox. Ageability is a big component of quality for me, and arguably in general, so I can’t figure out where I would place this one.
I tried some Cotat many years ago and was so disappointed that it took me a long time to get around to buying more. Now I’ve had some bottles that I thought were really special. I always like Boulay’s wines, I’m just not sure when to drink them. So far the answer has been drinking them all too young because I enjoy them so much.
Since this is going to be a catch-all for Loire Whites, it would be great to include any information of producer styles (especially oak use) and on recent vintages. How does 2020 compare to the previous five years? Any news on how the 2021 season went?
Luneau-Papin should be added to the melon category. They vinify a number of parcels separately, some monopoles, and I have not had them all. But several have been made since the 1970s (L d’Or, Les Pierres Blanche, Clos des Allées). I recently opened a 2002 Cuvée Excelsior from vines planted in 1936 in the commune of Goulaine that was stunning.
It’s a clear first to me. A 2010 last year was knee-buckling; advanced? Yes. Premoxed? I didn’t think so (but I can see how others might call it that).
At a certain (undefined) point, the debate becomes Premoxed, or just Oxed (appropriate for its age); I think many folks all-too-quickly call “premox” on many wines simply because they didn’t drink as if they’ve been in a time capsule since bottling. Not all Chenin (or Chardonnay; or Riesling; or Melon; or … or … or…} age at a glacial pace: there’s a range of “appropriately aged” that I think is often cut too narrowly. It seems that premox is not a stranger to the region — Huet and Chidaine have both had their issues, too.
So, all of that having been said, I don’t discount any of those producers for their past and/or ongoing issues; if their “issues” were more prevalent than I’ve experienced then – yeah, at some point I start knocking them down the ladder; I’m just not there yet, and hope my future experiences never do “get me there.” YMMV, of course.
Had the 2009 not that long ago, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and I agree it is a clear first based on that bottle at least. I might need more data points
I agree that the terms gets thrown around too much. The reasons I use it here are the large number of bottles just 2 of us have seen, the fact that multiple other people have had similar experiences, and the fact that how advanced they are has been highly variable from bottle to bottle, to an extent where even the color is noticeably different before opening. That all adds up to premox in my book. The worst bottles, and there have been several, were quite advanced at a very young age, not appropriately aged even for a Loire Chenin of much, much lesser quality. I’m glad you’ve had better luck.
You say he’s the anti-Huet because he only does one still wine per vintage or because his style is anti-Huet regardless of the type of still wine he’s chosen?
High sharp acidity, almost like a Mosel Riesling. Lemon, lime and green apples. Chalky mineral. You get some exotic fruit notes, a bit of honey and flowers in the layer beneath it. A subtle hint of oak is found as well. A good glass, but the acidity is a bit out of balance right now. Give it five more years. It is not my favourite style of Chenin. A bit to Burgundy inspired, but a good wine with good potential none the less.
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