Which Champagne are you drinking?

B.Kelly · February 17, 2022, 7:15pm

1994 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL- I`m not in the camp with those who love “aged” champagne when they get to that oxidized state where they taste pretty much the same with caramel, butterscotch and Sherry like, nutty notes; so, I was a bit apprehensive when this one was opened, not to mention the less than stellar vintage; the first clue of something good came from the still viable hint by its yellow gold color with an emphasis on gold; then came aromas of mature honeyed lemon, apple, pear and mango with mild accents of honeysuckle and caramel; the texture sealed the deal with a creaminess that served to enhance the long, sustained finish that led to a much bigger pour than the meager, skeptical, first one; this was uber rich and full-bodied with some weight; if this is what “aged” champagne is like, then I’m a fan.

Cheers,
Blake

Blake,

I love aged champagne, but I agree that oxidized champagnes can become unpleasantly similar. I remember years ago opening two 1996’s (Henriot Enchanteleur and Pol Roger) that tasted absolutely identical. Old warm apple cider and sherry. I had no experience at the time with aged champagne and tried and failed to talk myself into liking them. I assumed these two flawed wines were what aged champagne was supposed to taste like, then thinking I simply didn’t have the experience and sophistication to appreciate them!

Your ‘94 sounds like something I’d love. Is it a bottle you’ve owned a while? I didn’t start collecting wine until the early 2000’s, and didn’t pivot to champagne until much later. Other than a rare ‘90 and a few 96’s, I don’t have much in the cellar from before the ‘02 vintage.

Cheers,
Warren

My experiences with aged champagne are not dissimilar, though far less than you. From your experience, is there a typical age post-disgorgement that you know/expect will not be in your wheelhouse? I know there are a lot of factors at play beyond vintage and/or disgorgement date, so really trying to get a sense for what others think about when considering the age of a champagne.

Blake_Brown · February 17, 2022, 7:33pm

1994 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL- I`m not in the camp with those who love “aged” champagne when they get to that oxidized state where they taste pretty much the same with caramel, butterscotch and Sherry like, nutty notes; so, I was a bit apprehensive when this one was opened, not to mention the less than stellar vintage; the first clue of something good came from the still viable hint by its yellow gold color with an emphasis on gold; then came aromas of mature honeyed lemon, apple, pear and mango with mild accents of honeysuckle and caramel; the texture sealed the deal with a creaminess that served to enhance the long, sustained finish that led to a much bigger pour than the meager, skeptical, first one; this was uber rich and full-bodied with some weight; if this is what “aged” champagne is like, then I’m a fan.

Cheers,
Blake

Blake,

I love aged champagne, but I agree that oxidized champagnes can become unpleasantly similar. I remember years ago opening two 1996’s (Henriot Enchanteleur and Pol Roger) that tasted absolutely identical. Old warm apple cider and sherry. I had no experience at the time with aged champagne and tried and failed to talk myself into liking them. I assumed these two flawed wines were what aged champagne was supposed to taste like, then thinking I simply didn’t have the experience and sophistication to appreciate them!

Your ‘94 sounds like something I’d love. Is it a bottle you’ve owned a while? I didn’t start collecting wine until the early 2000’s, and didn’t pivot to champagne until much later. Other than a rare ‘90 and a few 96’s, I don’t have much in the cellar from before the ‘02 vintage.

Cheers,
Warren

My experiences with aged champagne are not dissimilar, though far less than you. From your experience, is there a typical age post-disgorgement that you know/expect will not be in your wheelhouse? I know there are a lot of factors at play beyond vintage and/or disgorgement date, so really trying to get a sense for what others think about when considering the age of a champagne.

You ask a great question Brian and I do not know the answer as the disgorgement date is so often not available for older bottles especially and as you say, there are lots of other considerations. To me, provenance is the most critical and even then, I’ve had bottles I bought from the source that have not been good. What happens before that in still unknown.

Warren_Taranow · February 17, 2022, 8:32pm

1994 LOUIS ROEDERER CRISTAL- I`m not in the camp with those who love “aged” champagne when they get to that oxidized state where they taste pretty much the same with caramel, butterscotch and Sherry like, nutty notes; so, I was a bit apprehensive when this one was opened, not to mention the less than stellar vintage; the first clue of something good came from the still viable hint by its yellow gold color with an emphasis on gold; then came aromas of mature honeyed lemon, apple, pear and mango with mild accents of honeysuckle and caramel; the texture sealed the deal with a creaminess that served to enhance the long, sustained finish that led to a much bigger pour than the meager, skeptical, first one; this was uber rich and full-bodied with some weight; if this is what “aged” champagne is like, then I’m a fan.

Cheers,
Blake

Blake,

I love aged champagne, but I agree that oxidized champagnes can become unpleasantly similar. I remember years ago opening two 1996’s (Henriot Enchanteleur and Pol Roger) that tasted absolutely identical. Old warm apple cider and sherry. I had no experience at the time with aged champagne and tried and failed to talk myself into liking them. I assumed these two flawed wines were what aged champagne was supposed to taste like, then thinking I simply didn’t have the experience and sophistication to appreciate them!

Your ‘94 sounds like something I’d love. Is it a bottle you’ve owned a while? I didn’t start collecting wine until the early 2000’s, and didn’t pivot to champagne until much later. Other than a rare ‘90 and a few 96’s, I don’t have much in the cellar from before the ‘02 vintage.

Cheers,
Warren

My experiences with aged champagne are not dissimilar, though far less than you. From your experience, is there a typical age post-disgorgement that you know/expect will not be in your wheelhouse? I know there are a lot of factors at play beyond vintage and/or disgorgement date, so really trying to get a sense for what others think about when considering the age of a champagne.

Brian,

I think there are way too many variables to generalize. Also, there’s a lot of individuality in the taster to consider. Some drinkers are intolerant of aged qualities (or flaws depending on your point of view) of older champagne. I personally love the hazelnut, mushroom, caramel, dates/dried fruit, coffee, cacao notes I get in old champagnes, as long as they are not completely dominant or overwhelming. I’m intolerant of apple cider aromas, which are all too common.
I can still enjoy bottles that are clearly past peak, but still hold some interest. I have some really old bottles of René Collard that I think most would describe as circling the drain, while I still like them. OTOH, I’ve loved the 1995 Charles Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires, devouring cases over almost two decades only to find my recent bottles much less enjoyable (past peak).
Jeez, I got off on a tangent here. Sorry for the non-answer. I should have just said “Uh, I don’t know”.

Cheers,
Warren

Kirk.Grant · February 17, 2022, 8:54pm

I’ve been a lurker for many months now, looking on in awe of the knowledge and various viewpoints expressed by everyone in this and other Champagne threads. I’ve always loved sparkling wines, but for the most part my cellar and experience is weighted heavy towards California, specifically Schramsberg. Every once in a while, we would dabble in Champagne, but never with enough consistency or focus to build real opinions. A few years ago, I discovered we really enjoy the richer, oxidative, late disgorged wines, though I also recognize low dosage, crisp and acidic wines have their own place.

This thread (and many others) really encouraged me to branch out and try more champagnes that aren’t right down the fairway for me. With that, I’ve been buying ones or twos of a lot that is recommended here as well as a few others to try out. It’s a good thing I don’t have kids, otherwise I would recklessly (or wisely?) blow through their college savings building a champagne collection. This will be a fun journey!

While I have been stocking up on Bouchard, any vintage Bollinger (what can I say, I have a type!) and a handful of others, I decided to try something that I haven’t seen mentioned very much in the forums here to break in my new Glasvin glasses:

Voirin Jumel Grand Cru Blanc de Blancs
Based on the 2015/2016 vintages. Four years on the lees and 6 g/l dosage. A nice BdB from grand cru villages. Drank half on Thursday evening for a Zoom happy hour, closed off with a stopper and had the remaining half with Saturday brunch. The acidity is nice but not overpowering at all. Baked apple, citrus and brioche dominate. Very light and refreshing, nice minerality and just a little creaminess. Not surprisingly, paired very well with fried chicken. Better on day 2 (or 3?) than on opening. This would be a great aperitif. Schramsberg has been our house BdB, but this may replace it. At $47 (thanks inflation!) the QPR is not as strong (was <$40), but I’ll need to reset expectations once everything has been repriced.

Welcome to the forums! It’s always nice to have another wine geek join in the chaos!

Kirk.Grant · February 17, 2022, 9:10pm

Yes, I very much miss the days when this was only $55/bottle. According to CT I consumed about 2 cases of this wine between 2009 & 2019. I probably should have bought (and drank) more.

B.Kelly · February 17, 2022, 10:42pm

Brian,

I think there are way too many variables to generalize. Also, there’s a lot of individuality in the taster to consider. Some drinkers are intolerant of aged qualities (or flaws depending on your point of view) of older champagne. I personally love the hazelnut, mushroom, caramel, dates/dried fruit, coffee, cacao notes I get in old champagnes, as long as they are not completely dominant or overwhelming. I’m intolerant of apple cider aromas, which are all too common.
I can still enjoy bottles that are clearly past peak, but still hold some interest. I have some really old bottles of René Collard that I think most would describe as circling the drain, while I still like them. OTOH, I’ve loved the 1995 Charles Heidsieck Blanc des Millénaires, devouring cases over almost two decades only to find my recent bottles much less enjoyable (past peak).
Jeez, I got off on a tangent here. Sorry for the non-answer. I should have just said “Uh, I don’t know”.

Cheers,
Warren

No worries at all, I should have known better than to ask an impossible to answer question. But, what you described is exactly what I look for in aged champagne, but I have only found maybe once or twice as part of a tasting menu.

Perhaps a dumber question that the original, but the notes you listed with aged champagne, are those typically (or more likely to be) present on wines with a long time on the lees?

B.Kelly · February 17, 2022, 10:44pm

Ha! I’m undecided if I’m full on wine geek or just plain foolish, but glad to be part of the fun in either case!

Frank_Murray_III · February 17, 2022, 11:12pm

A few of the guys and I did these wines last night, all served blind. I curated the flights to do some comparisons for us to discuss, which turned out great. In part too, I am doing some further study into both Larmandier-Bernier and Laherte Freres in preparation for the Zooms next month. Hope these notes are of value to a few of you.

BLIND TASTING WITH THE GUYS - Maison Cafe in Dana Point, CA (2/17/2022)

A Look At Les 7

NV Laherte Frères Champagne Les 7 Extra Brut - France, Champagne
I sourced this for the blind event we had last night. I had been curious to try this wine because of its unique composition: all 7 authorized Champagne grapes are used, in roughly equal amounts. And, the wine is built from a solera began back starting from 2005, the output of a small plot in Chavot planted by the family back in 2003 using all 7 varieties. Disgorged January 2021, with just a few grams of dosage. This is an interesting wine, with grapefruit, honeyed green apple, and some prickly structure, along with some red berry notes, like a bright raspberry. It’s expensive (I paid $110 US for it) yet was worth the study and experience. However, at the price, I would rather use my budget for the Autrefois or Craie Nature bottlings, both made by the family.

Two Pinot Noir Roses

2015 Marie Courtin Champagne Indulgence Extra Brut Rosé - France, Champagne
Bottle #2, disgorged November 2018. 100% macerated Pinot Noir. I found this wine to be unique last time I had it and again it shows those same qualities. Even the rest of the guys at the table found the wine to be worthy of conversation and discussion. Cranberry, strawberry, watermelon and blood orange. This is a concentrated and more heady wine, reminding me a bit like cool climate California still Pinot Noir. This needs air to really unwrap. With more air, this gains a smoky top note, red apple and a cherry/watermelon hard candy note, like Jolly Rancher. This for me is a fascinating wine, what my buddy Ramon called ‘cerebral’. It is that wine.
2013 Larmandier-Bernier Champagne Premier Cru Rosé de Maturation - France, Champagne, Champagne Premier Cru
Disgorged June 2018, a blend of Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris from Vertus. I believe some of this wine is done in concrete, and the wine overall sees an additional 4 years of time on the lees, i.e. it’s ‘matured’. Gorgeous light peach color, with stone fruit, good density and reminding me a lot of the Vilmart Emotion rose. As the wine saw more air, it picked up some flavors of kiwi, almond, more peach and even a touch of yogurt. Finishes with lime zest, fresh, zesty and elegant. This really showed a wow factor last night.

Two Chardonnays

NV Laherte Frères Champagne Nature De Craie Premier Cru Brut Nature - France, Champagne
Second bottle this month. Disgorged May 2021, 100% Chard from Vertus and Voipreux (both in the CdB), made without sulfur and dosage. Last night’s bottle was poured blind as I wanted to see how the group would respond to the wine. The opinion on this was pretty consistent for high marks, as the chalk really came through, as did the lemon oil note. Mint, citrus zest, pounded rock aroma (chalk?) with depth and texture. This is a terrific Chardonnay, one that really does express the terroir nicely.
2014 Rémi Leroy Champagne Blanc de Blancs - France, Champagne
I don’t drink enough of Remi’s wines (I am fixing that as some more are now arriving). Decided to open another of the 2014 BdB last night, pour it blind and see what the guys thought. Disgorged December 2018, 100% Chardonnay, 3 grams of dosage. The richness on this wine is terrific, and I know the 2014 vintage in the Aube did produce wines that were tauter and higher acidity but this bottling has seemed to pull it all together in an approachable, seductive style. Tangerine, green apple, lemon candy and mineral. Easy to drink with bright features and plenty of texture.

An Early Look at 15 Eff and Check-In on 737DT

2015 Marie Courtin Champagne Efflorescence Extra Brut - France, Champagne
Disgorged November 2018. Farmed biodynamic, 100% Pinot Noir done in old wood and without dosage. I bought a six pack of the 2015, based on going through a case of the 2014 and being so overjoyed with that wine over and over again. So, decided to pour this blind last night and see how it showed. This is beautiful, with stone and white flower aromas, suave red fruit and a stony finish. Already this seems approachable so I will get another bottle open soon and drink that one over a couple for days to capture a more extended note and impression. But, first impressions for now…this is delicious.
NV Jacquesson & Fils Champagne Cuvée No. 737 Dégorgement Tardif - France, Champagne
Disgorged November 2017, I think 1-2 grams of dosage. Blend of fruit from the Marne and CdB. The kicker on this wine is the long lees time, I think 90 months. I liked this wine, but I didn’t love it. It’s got the impression of the lees on the aroma and some bruised apple notes, which typically I don’t care for in my Champagne. I thought this was good, maybe more elegant and starting to show some aged quality but I would honestly rather drink the Marie Courtin Efflorescence I poured blind next to it.

Posted from CellarTracker

Warren_Taranow · February 18, 2022, 5:40am

2002 Vilmart & Cie Champagne Premier Cru Coeur de Cuvée (CdC)
We caught this at a good moment. The profile has the perfect balance of youth and maturity, power and elegance. Dense but energetic, with flavors and aromas of apple, lemon and honeysuckle as well as mushroom and caramel, just to name a few. Some barrel influence; vinous, and great viscosity.
This sadly marks the end of my “older” bottles of Vilmart. Over the past year, I’ve finished off the last of my '99, '01 and now '02 CdC, as well as the rest of my '98 Grand Cellier d’Or (GCdO). IMO, Vilmart really needs a lot of time, so unless I can backfill, I’ll be drinking many before they reach their apogee.
I take comfort in FMIII’s note above, where the signature lists the '13 GCdO as a best wine for 2022!

Cheers,
Warren
Vilmart stage.jpeg
Vilmart front.jpeg
Vilmart back.jpeg

K_John_Joseph · February 18, 2022, 6:01pm

A few of the guys and I did these wines last night, all served blind. I curated the flights to do some comparisons for us to discuss, which turned out great. In part too, I am doing some further study into both Larmandier-Bernier and Laherte Freres in preparation for the Zooms next month. Hope these notes are of value to a few of you.

BLIND TASTING WITH THE GUYS - Maison Cafe in Dana Point, CA (2/17/2022)

A Look At Les 7

NV Laherte Frères Champagne Les 7 Extra Brut - France, Champagne
I sourced this for the blind event we had last night. I had been curious to try this wine because of its unique composition: all 7 authorized Champagne grapes are used, in roughly equal amounts. And, the wine is built from a solera began back starting from 2005, the output of a small plot in Chavot planted by the family back in 2003 using all 7 varieties. Disgorged January 2021, with just a few grams of dosage. This is an interesting wine, with grapefruit, honeyed green apple, and some prickly structure, along with some red berry notes, like a bright raspberry. It’s expensive (I paid $110 US for it) yet was worth the study and experience. However, at the price, I would rather use my budget for the Autrefois or Craie Nature bottlings, both made by the family.

I agree with you on Les 7. An interesting wine that I’m glad I tried, but not one that I am likely to buy in any volume or on a consistent basis. The price point is not commensurate to the pleasure it delivers, even if I would describe it as a pretty good, complex, and interesting wine. It is not at the top of LF’s “best” wines, and I preferred Autrefois when I had them both a month or two ago.

Frank_Murray_III · February 18, 2022, 6:21pm

Warren, the last time I had the 2002 was way back in 2018 and when Steve Nordhoff blinded us a bunch of Coeur de Cuvee. I blame and yet have to thank Steve for introducing me to Vilmart several years ago. Have you got any 2004 left? I know Laurent likes that wine a lot. How about 2006? I could have made that my WOTY last year, as the 2006 is banging good right now.

John, I need to go get a bottle of the Petit Meslier and give that a go. You had that yet? I know there isn’t a lot of it to go around.

B_Davies · February 18, 2022, 6:30pm

Does someone know the answer to why Brotherhood winery can label their sparkling wine “champagne” ?

I’ve Googled quite a bit and I can’t figure out why they can get away with this or just haven’t been caught. I thought Korbel was the only one who was grandfathered in.

B_Beachy · February 18, 2022, 7:04pm

It wasn’t until 2006 that the U.S. agreed to respect the European definition of the word “Champagne,” but American producers already using the term were grandfathered in and can continue to do so.

B_Davies · February 18, 2022, 7:16pm

Ah, thanks.

AD_Northup · February 19, 2022, 9:47pm

A few recents:

2016 Michel Gonet Champagne Grand Cru Blanc de Blancs Grand Cru Extra Brut Hautes Mottes - France, Champagne, Champagne Grand Cru (2/16/2022)
Made by Marco Pelletier & Raj Parr. BdB from the Hautes Mottes lieu-dit. No dosage, 3,500 bottles made. Very very pale color. Very fresh, really full of minerality/stone. Some green apple starts to emerge after about 45 minutes, straining under the weight of the chalk. Tough to really read this bottle right now, might need a good bit more time in bottle to truly come together

Posted from CellarTracker

2012 Domaine Nowack Champagne Les Bauchets Extra Brut - France, Champagne (2/18/2022)
BdN from the lieux-fit of Les Bauchets. 1215 bottles made. Disgorged 18 October 2020 (I believe). Distinctly Pinot noir in the fruit profile. Very savory champagne, long finish. I preferred the La Tuilerie BdB to my taste, but this is well built.

Posted from CellarTracker

NV Marie-Noëlle Ledru Champagne Grand Cru Brut - France, Champagne, Champagne Grand Cru (2/19/2022)
Bought in early 2020, no info on the make up of the bottle. Little lighter in color than I remember the last bottle being. Absolutely full of green apple, almond, some quince. Fortunate to have a stash to follow for awhile. Very few NV champagnes hit like this.

Posted from CellarTracker

B_Davies · February 20, 2022, 8:20pm

Wine rep brought by Pierre Morlet, Champagne Brut Grande Réserve and Pierre Morlet, Champagne 1er Cru Brut Grande Réserve (2012) last week.

Really lovely wines. As expected the 2012 was young tasting and just had more of that acid and punch. The regular non-vintage wine to me was equally as well made and much more integrated palate. This is a crisp style of champagne no oxidation. Bubbles felt soft and elegant and were really well integrated. I’d be happy with either but the NV was spectacular as a drink now option.

M.Kaplan · February 21, 2022, 2:10am

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Warren_Taranow · February 21, 2022, 5:15am

The Philipponnat 1522 Extra Brut is another 2008 that’s finally entering a nice drinking window. Previous bottles had been tart and slightly severe. Now it’s a gorgeous wine. The lush texture, fine bead and acidity all balance perfectly. I find pear, apricot, lime, and honeysuckle. I can’t wait to try the ‘08 Goisses in a few years.

Steve_Nordhoff · February 21, 2022, 2:44pm

Time for another vertical soon. I think I have both of those vintages

Dennis_Atick · February 21, 2022, 3:47pm

yummy!

NV Henri Giraud Champagne Esprit Nature - France, Champagne (2/20/2022)
Disg. 10/21
Almond, citrus, apple skin. Full-bodied, slightly vinuous, racy acidity and fine concentration. Slight oxidation. Integrated and easy to drink. Perhaps a tad simple, but charming and and elegant in its own way. Youthful.
Posted from CellarTracker