When does flipping become selling at the market price?

[Udo_Hoerhold]

@Serge Birbrair

…and since when making money became a dirty practice?
I did my first flip at the age of 5, bought stamp for 4 cents and resold 15 minutes later at 6.

Making money is not a dirty practice, but WHAT YOU DO to make the money might be. Hoarding a commodity for the purpose of making money, while providing no value yourself might be considered a less than favorable practice.

[Udo_Hoerhold]

@Serge Birbrair

@Udo Hoerhold

@Serge Birbrair

…and since when making money became a dirty practice?
I did my first flip at the age of 5, bought stamp for 4 cents and resold 15 minutes later at 6.

Making money is not a dirty practice, but WHAT YOU DO to make the money might be. Hoarding a commodity for the purpose of making money, while providing no value yourself might be considered a less than favorable practice.

Udo, my definition of favorable practice is very simple:
If the laws of the land allow the practice to make money -
it is favorable practice.

By your definition every futures trader is engaged in “less than favorable” practice, traders buy oil, grain, gold, etc without any intention to use it. Drug pushing on the corner by your definition, is Favorable Practice, as they do NOT hoard drugs and engaged in pure buy/sell transaction, sometimes even partaking in the commodity they sell.

You are putting up arguments left and right. Because some people frown on a particular practice, you imply that we frown on making money. No one ever said that. I also never said that any practice that doesn’t hoard is favorable. You are using false logic to imply that from what I said.

Frankly, in my opinion, futures trading is not favorable. You are making money from the mere fact that someone else will lose money. In my opinion, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it favorable.

[Darryl_Priest]

@Steve Saxon

IMO, If you don’t offer it first to friends at cost then it makes you a flipper.

[Dan_Hammer]

I have my 2 Schraders and I’m very happy. I know I can turn them over (sounds nicer than flippin) for twice what I paid for them. Since I don’t need the money (anymore) now that my daughter has graduated from college, I’ll continue to hold these until they’re ready to drink (or someone makes me an offer that I can’t refuse).

And no, 2 first class seat on SQ will not even be considered.

[Cris_Whetstone]

@K V a s t o l a

@Paul McCourt

When does flipping become selling at the market price?

Very simple. When you do it, it’s flipping. When I do it, it’s selling at a reasonable price.

And what Rick said. Buying a wine with the intention of selling it for more is usually what is indentified as ‘flipping’. Some people get worked up about the practice and others don’t. You buy something and it’s your discretion as to what to do with it IMHO. That said, people who camp on highly sought after wine lists merely to flip are kind of sad.

[Jeff_Twersky]

Given most of the definitions offered, shouldn’t Commerce Corner be renamed Flipperville?

[R_Gaston]

I remember talking to Manfred at SQN a few years back abou this subject. I thought he would have a problem with the whole flipping of his wines, but it did not bother him at all. The only issue he had was with storage and worried that the person spending the highest price for his wine has the highest probability of getting a poorly stored wine.

When someone bought his wine, they could do whatever they wanted with it…I guess I can’t argue with that…

[M.Kaplan]

@Udo Hoerhold

Frankly, in my opinion, futures trading is not favorable. You are making money from the mere fact that someone else will lose money. In my opinion, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it favorable.

Uh, no. Futures contracts are a way to stabilize commodity prices for those who manufacture goods and provide transportation services for goods (and people). And for those who buy the goods and services, all the way to the consumer. Price volatility is not good for anyone, except maybe the spot traders whom you apparently don’t like. Stability and predictability are good.

[Randy_Bowman]

@Udo Hoerhold

Making money is not a dirty practice, but WHAT YOU DO to make the money might be. Hoarding a commodity for the purpose of making money, while providing no value yourself might be considered a less than favorable practice.

Udo,

Wikipedia definition:

Distributor: A company or individual who hoards a commodity for the purpose of making money, while providing no credible value tp the commodity beyond raising its price based on availability.

[jordan_whitehead]

@Peter C.

Ask Jordan and Tyler, they know the answer .

was wondering when PMC would put my name out there.


Who cares what these jagoffs call you, especially the one’s that root for the red sox

[Jorge_Henriquez]

THE “it” question for 2010:

[jordan_whitehead]

Hey Peter, here’s a flipper for you

[Paul_McCourt]

Very interesting to read the thoughts on this. I greatly enjoy wine…buying, owning (yeah, I get pleasure just looking at what I own…I admit it) and drinking it. I wish that the financial part of it was wholly secondary, but it is not. Even though I can ‘pretty much’ afford most of what I want, I am unable to (due to my somewhat “frugal” upbringing) even come close to moderately divorcing myself from that aspect of it. That is not just a wine-related issue, but a life issue for me…I have trouble spending money just because “I can” for innumerable reasons that are personal to me. Guilt. A great motivator, eh? Money gets confusing. I can easily pick up a 12 person dinner tab because I love the hang time with my friends and “that’s what life is about” but I will turn around and talk 5 bucks on a sale of a bottle of wine. Is there a confused smilies? I’d also be happy to crack open a wildly expensive bottle for anyone of my friends, or one of you wine geeks, because the pleasure of that far exceeds the $$ aspect. This is how wine should be, to me. It mirrors life.

I, too, don’t like “flipping” when it robs people of access to wine. I wouldn’t like to be “shut out” of X because it was snatched up and tripled in price. I enjoy buying a few from guys like Justin. I don’ know why. I don’t know him. But as a wine fan I like seeing him do well, probably because it is self serving and getting some of his wine makes me feel good. I usually buy only a few, which I want to drink. Buying is a pleasure beyond and in addition to drinking it…(although I wouldn’t buy it if I didn’t like to drink it). It is fun on another level. I’ve had a couple and am not explaining myself clearly, but I think flipping should go in the category of intent. You are a wine lover, or you are looking to make a buck. Hard to tell who is who sometimes. I don’t think that if you sell for a profit you are automatically a schmoe (flipper), and who am I to reach into someone’s heart and judge that?

[M_Smith]

Udo,
It seems difficult to pull wool over your eyes.

@Udo Hoerhold

@Serge Birbrair

@Udo Hoerhold

Making money is not a dirty practice, but WHAT YOU DO to make the money might be. Hoarding a commodity for the purpose of making money, while providing no value yourself might be considered a less than favorable practice.

Udo, my definition of favorable practice is very simple:
If the laws of the land allow the practice to make money -
it is favorable practice.

By your definition every futures trader is engaged in “less than favorable” practice, traders buy oil, grain, gold, etc without any intention to use it. Drug pushing on the corner by your definition, is Favorable Practice, as they do NOT hoard drugs and engaged in pure buy/sell transaction, sometimes even partaking in the commodity they sell.

You are putting up arguments left and right. Because some people frown on a particular practice, you imply that we frown on making money. No one ever said that. I also never said that any practice that doesn’t hoard is favorable. You are using false logic to imply that from what I said.

Frankly, in my opinion, futures trading is not favorable. You are making money from the mere fact that someone else will lose money. In my opinion, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it favorable.

[M_Smith]

Sorry Serge,

You are trading in simplifying assumptions. I’m not buying.

@Serge Birbrair

@Udo Hoerhold

Frankly, in my opinion, futures trading is not favorable. You are making money from the mere fact that someone else will lose money. In my opinion, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it favorable.

Farmer sold 10000 bushels of corn on futures at $2 a bushel. Futures trader bought 10000 bushels of corn at $2.

Farmer is guaranteed now the price he is getting for his crop, even if the crop at the record levels and price of the corn is only $1 by the time the crop is in his hand.
Farmer benefits from futures market.

The ONLY way the farmer benefits from the futures market is because the futures trader buys it at $2 in hope to sell the crop to the corn syrup factory at a PROFIT. When he sells it at 2.50 to syrup factory,
he made money, farmer made money and you, the consumer, have your syrup.

I bought Sceameagle at $100. The one who is not on the list and dies to have this wine one can’t have otherwise buys it at $300.
Winemaker made his money, I made my money, and you who were dieing to by Screameagle have your wine.

This is Capitalism. If you do not like the way it works, then you just do not like this economic system. Nothing wrong with that.

When there is enough people in the country who do not like capitalism,
the country will have revolution and the new economic system will replace capitalism,
like it happened in Russia. When there are enough people in the country who do not like the new system, another revolution will take place and country will go back to capitalism, like it happened in Russia.

[Paul_McCourt]

I don’t know how futures trading came into this, but it is a well-established fact that futures trading has legitimate benefits for many participants in the marketplace, farmers included. Abuse of that particular market doesn’t refute this fact.

[mike_pobega]

A Russian is doling out lessons in capitalism!
Caviar? Yes. Vodka? Sure. Capitalism?

Cancel my membership.

[Udo_Hoerhold]

@Serge Birbrair

@Udo Hoerhold

Frankly, in my opinion, futures trading is not favorable. You are making money from the mere fact that someone else will lose money. In my opinion, just because it’s legal doesn’t make it favorable.

Farmer sold 10000 bushels of corn on futures at $2 a bushel. Futures trader bought 10000 bushels of corn at $2.

Farmer is guaranteed now the price he is getting for his crop, even if the crop at the record levels and price of the corn is only $1 by the time the crop is in his hand.
Farmer benefits from futures market.

The ONLY way the farmer benefits from the futures market is because the futures trader buys it at $2 in hope to sell the crop to the corn syrup factory at a PROFIT. When he sells it at 2.50 to syrup factory,
he made money, farmer made money and you, the consumer, have your syrup.

I bought Sceameagle at $100. The one who is not on the list and dies to have this wine one can’t have otherwise buys it at $300.
Winemaker made his money, I made my money, and you who were dieing to by Screameagle have your wine.

This is Capitalism. If you do not like the way it works, then you just do not like this economic system. Nothing wrong with that.

When there is enough people in the country who do not like capitalism,
the country will have revolution and the new economic system will replace capitalism,
like it happened in Russia. When there are enough people in the country who do not like the new system, another revolution will take place and country will go back to capitalism, like it happened in Russia.

1. My mistake, I was on my way out the door when I read and responded to the last post. I saw “futures trading” but my brain was thinking “short selling”, so I wasn’t commenting on futures trading, my comment was directed at selling short. Brain fart.

2. Your analogy is flawed. In the futures market, the farmer benefits because he gets a guaranteed price for his crop. The futures trader is providing benefit by providing capital to stabilize the market. In the Screagle case, you provide no benefit at all. Screagle will get the same price for their wine with or without you. You’re just screwing someone who really wants the wine.

I don’t have a problem with capitalism. You can sell anyone anything you want, and if they’re willing to pay your price, that’s great, everyone is happy. If you make $200 on Screagle, I don’t have any opinion of that because I don’t have any interest in that wine. But, if I really loved Screagle, and I had to pay an extra $200 for it because you were camping on a spot on the list and flipping it, I would have an opinion of what you were doing. You can decide that you don’t care what other peoples opinions are, but they have a right to that opinion. You can’t tell me “if it’s legal, it’s ethical” when you’re screwing me.

[Alan_Zee]

Guys,

This is called capitalism. You do not have to participate. No one is forcing anyone to buy a bottle of wine for twice it’s value. You have choices. The futures market has a definite place in our capitalistic society. I truly don’t understand why there is so much debate on whether its is right or wrong, whether flipping wines is right or wrong. No one is forcing you to participate. It is a free market economy. I would have it no other way.

As for Serge, yeah, he is Russian, but last time I checked, he has been in America well over 20 years and had a VERY successful business built from ZERO in this country. So, don’t necessarily discount his capitalistic thought process.

As for flipping, guilty as charged. I rarely ever buy wine to flip, I buy wine to collect and drink. It is one of my passions in life. But considering that one of my businesses involves analysis and research for Wall St. firms, I typically think like one of those “stinking capitalists”. I have sold wine for profit, but not on purpose and here are a few prime examples.

1. I used to collect quantity of Opus One. It truly enjoyed it, but then my tastes changed a bit and while I still enjoy Opus One, I don’t need to maintain a forklift worth of any one vintage. I have sold Opus One on winecommune which is an auction site. I set my reserve and let the FREE MARKET determine what I will get paid for the wine. Many times it resulted in a rather substantial profit. Did I buy Opus One to make money? no, but I ended up benefiting from the market and the fact I stored the wine for years. Plus the increase in Opus One pricing at the time was absolutely ridiculous. Why shouldn’t I benefit if I do not wish to maintain the level of inventory I had? or put a few extra sheckel’s into the bank account.

2. A collector of Opus One ,who had won a number of my auctions contacted me directly and asked if he could try to negotiate a deal directly with me on some other Opus I might not have listed. He wanted a 10 year vertical. I had such a vertical and was glad to sell it to him and yes, at a profit. My time, my storage, my financial investment all have related costs associated with each. I made a profit, the guy was thrilled he had a ten year vertical. What is wrong with this?

3. 2001 Casanova di Neri - WS wine of the year (forgot what year). Anyway, I happened to buy a bunch of it BEFORE it was wine of the year for about $70 a bottle. The wine gets it’s accolade from WS and price goes up. I don’t look to sell, I bought it to drink. One day, I decide to open a bottle and see what all the hoopla is about…while I love Brunello’s , I didn’t see why this was WOTY and to me it was rather ordinary. Ok, I figure I will wait a year and try it again. I do that…and I am still not crazy with it. I see market price is $180-$200. I figure, ok, let me sell most of what I have and BUY SOMETHING I LOVE. Again, put it out to auction and low and behold I sold all I had with the exception of three bottles between $160-$200 a bottle. Am I a bad person for making a profit and then reinvesting in wine that I love? I didn’t hoard anything, lol. I bought because it was recommended to me and got good reviews, but it didn’t suit my taste. It was good, but not great (for my taste).

There are a couple of other instances as well. I have also bought wines on auction and I bought a ton about a year ago when the wine market tanked. I know people lost money. Am I a bad person for buying their wine at a loss to them?

I really do not see the argument to this thread. It is a free market economy. You can participate if you wish or you can opt out. No one is forcing you to buy or sell your wines. Some people I know buy a few extra bottles so they can sell it and help fund their wine habit. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Udo_Hoerhold]

@Serge Birbrair

the rest of the Universe can go at tuck itself.

That’s the answer I was looking for. As long as we’re being honest about it.