I love these terroir pissing contest threads almost as much as the travel shock threads.
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I have a trauma especially when it comes to the likes of Chorey les Beaune and Pernand-Vergelesses, I remember wines in the 90s that were just undrinkable, thin, hard and sour as my wife would say. These have definitely profited from the heating up effect. There is a discussion that the hot vintages reduce the expression of the terroir. However the grapes seem to be adapting and the producers also seem to be showing great flexibility in adapting.
A few years ago, I had a discussion with Albert Mann, the alsatian producer. He had pretty individual theories. Burgundy in itself, is a perfect example of romanesque mind set to wine making, the fermentation leads to a point where the wines are dry, there is a great element of the irrationalism, single vineyards, more work, sacrificing a blend or in other words a better wine for the expression of a single vineyard etc. Then for him the germanic style of winemaking, the stopping of the fermentation dictates how much residual sugar remains, He ridiculed the idea of the VDPs idea of GröĂe GewĂ€chse as being against the very nature of traditional germanic wine making and one was imposing a romanesque philosophy on Riesling especially.
For him Bordeaux and Champagne reflected more the english/dutch mindset, mercantile, rationality opposed to Burgundyâs irrationality.
T.S Eliot writes in Rannoch, By Glencoe
Memory is strong
Beyond the bone
I sometimes wonder if in the Champagne, the gallic mindset is asserting itself over the mercantile mindset which dominated the region for centuries.
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So Iâm guessing you like their grand cuvĂ©e more than Clos de mesnil?
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I wish, I could say I have tasted the Clos de Mesnil, but I have not and at the current prices, I doubt i will.
I think the Champagne gives us a good example of the problematic with single vineyards. There are definitely sites that deliver, I think of the likes of Jacquessonâs Crus and Selosseâs crus, yet many sites that are being lauded as single vineyards which for me lack the gutsiness and true uniqueness to deserve a singular expression.
It is a complicated subject.
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Seems like a particular disaster for the whites and especially Chablis. If the '15/'18 vintage style becomes the norm Iâm afraid there will be little remaining of what made these wines so great, at least for my personal taste preferences. Reds may fare slightly better, but there are limits there as well.
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We are definitely off on a tangent, and this has been discussed many times before, but how much of the improvement in previously marginal regions is due to climate change, and how much to investment in growing and winemaking that is allowed by increases in pricing? I personally think pricing and investment have been bigger factors.
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You have a bunch of ppl saying 20 whites are better than 17 and as good as 14. 19 is great too. Iâve had 19 leflaive grand crus a few times lately and itâs been great if young.
Thatâs great, and I hope that continues to be the case. My point though, is that if temperatures continue to increase and 8 out of every 10 vintages are like 2015 or 2018 is that still a good thing? I defer to your superior knowledge and experience on these wines, but for my personal tastes an increase of very ripe vintages isnât necessarily good. Your post seems to assume we wonât see significant additional warming, while mine presumes the opposite.
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In the last 5 years we have two relatively cool vintages (17, 21) and three ripe ones.
Would you argue 2007-2011 was a better time period for whites? I wouldnât. How about reds?
What about 1997-2001?
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Again, your points are well taken, but I am more concerned with where things are going than with where they are at this exact moment. Hopefully my concerns are misplaced. Itâs also not that relevant since Iâve mostly shifted dollar elsewhere in response to rising prices. I do, however, still quite like Chablis for which I lave little interest in the very warm vintages.
07 was pretty good, 08 excellent, 09 warm, 10 excellent, 11 warm but cut short by early rains.
I will argue not a huge difference between the two periods. Though factoring in price, the early span was by far the better buy. I could pretty easily afford Bouchard 1ers, some GCs, all of Boillotâs wines, even Roulot and PYCM. None of them in 2020.
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I think 17, 20 and 21 are superb white vintages and 19 is excellent, with only 18 as a less than wonderful vintage. I wonât argue about prices being higher.
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I would politely disagree. At last years Grand Jours, for me Vosne Romanée, usually the highlight was a homogenous mess. Totally lacking the precison of the past.
Nuit st George, in the direction of Ladoix in the vicinity of the quarry where the soils are usually too wet are now dry and make really interesting wines.
Pommard, the bottom part which again was always too hot, now the soil is dry and this changed the dynamics of Pommard drastically. Pernand Vergelesses in the past way too cold now a real winner.
The Haut CĂŽtes in the past struggling with ripeness now a real winner.
No question, as the more desirable areas get more expensive and customer explore the lesser regions more money is definitely a bonus. But how do you explain Aligoté, a clear winner of climate change.
Or look at Goisot, in hot vintages buy Aligoté and Pinot Noir and in cold vintages buy Chardonnay, how does money fit in here?.
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Itâs complex, no doubt. I was more raising the question than answering it. But I also wonder if some of the better wines coming out of traditionally âlesserâ, more difficult communes, are from younger, more innovative producers who are adapting faster and better, while some well established producer havenât done as much to adapt? That might be partially true for vineyards that have been planted or replanted more recently, with an eye on how climate has changed, and where it might go in the coming decades.
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Iâm amazed at how long this digression has gone on for without devolving into ad hominem attacks. Good job folks 
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Same for me. While â19 has been great so far in Chablis Iâve really struggled to enjoy â18s. Just too much.
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I am beginning to think Bordeaux prices are not going to go up much for a while. Right now, there are slowdowns in the economy for many types of people buying high-end wines - from Silicon Valley tech workers, to Wall Street Invesment Bankers, to Russian oligarchs, to Chinese businessmen. Probably wonât impact Burgundy much given the small quantities of production (esp. after some very small recent harvests) but beyond the really big names could help keep Bordeaux prices more reasonable for the next couple of years.
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I think the prices will go up compared to 2019 EP but not relative to current market price.z
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Iâm not a tequila guy, so wonât speak on that.
I strongly disagree with your assertion w/r/t beer. Water, hops, and malt all make a difference. Different hops and different malts will yield different flavors. The same hop or malt strain grown in different areas can yield different flavors.
I am really struggling with 2021, on paper I should like them but somehow they lack a core. Nobody here is buying, more backfilling with 2020.
Why do you think 2021 is a big vintage for whites, the acidity is there but no real substance?
After some preliminary tastigs of early release 2022 Chablis, really impressed but way too early to make any sort of judgements.