What's the deal with double decanting?

[Gary_Ahearn]

I do it when bringing an older wine to a restaurant. Avoids shaking up the sediment (since it’s gone) and gives the wine a chance to open up. Avoids a mishap on the way or a bad decantation.

this is what i do. If i could i’d just pour it in the decanter and bring the decanter (which i’ve done).

How do you guys handle the cork and capsule when you do this? They rarely go back in and on perfectly. I’m always concerned about how the restaurant will react. Ok to do for a friends house or the club.

“The rarely go back in and on perfectly.” True. After I pull the cork, I’ll immediately place it into an empty wine bottle–say 1/4 of the way in. That way the lower portion of the cork will retain its shape . . . otherwise it tends to expand and can be difficult to get it back into the original bottle.

[John_Morris]

You’ll likely get a variety of responses. In my case, I double decant because a) I want to get the wine off its sediment, so I can pour to the bottom during a dinner without worrying about that; and b) more often than not I want to give the wine a bit of air, which double decanting will do, even if it’s not as much as sitting open in a decanter for hours. I’ll double decant younger wines, even white wines where sediment is not an issue, just for the air exposure.

Alan, Alan, Alan! You were the one who demonstrated that virtually no oxygen penetrates the surface of a wine sitting in a decanter – that the oxygen is introduced by the splashing of decanting. Have you forgotten?!

Yes, when it’s just sitting there. But pouring into a secondary vessel of any kind (I use just another empty wine bottle) is splash decanting. So you’re getting that effect twice, as you decant out, and back in again.

If you do choose to use a decanter, the lesson from my post is that you should swirl it around every now and then. Just letting it sit there accomplishes very little. The point I was trying to make is that once you decant back into the bottle, the effect of any exposure to air is done, you won’t get any more than what it just experienced in the two splash decants.

But your (bolded) phrasing suggests that just sitting there would aerate the wine more than splashing. That’s what I was teasing you about.

[Alan_Rath]

Lol, but even so, a large decanter surface area is going to do more than just sitting in a closed bottle. Though, for those reading, if you want wine in a decanter to do anything but just sit there unchanged, pick it up and swirl it around every now and then.

[Marshall_Manning]

Chris & Marshall, very helpful! Makes sense. Was thinking about buying one of those strainer things but it seems to be not needed.

I have one, but only use it to filter out cork pieces in older corks that sometimes break apart. Standing up your bottle a week in advance and then decanting carefully and slowly will always do the trick much better than a filter, which still lets the fine sediment through.

[Noah_C]

Thanks for all the responses. This confirms a lot of what I thought, and also why I was a bit confused; depending on how it is used, one can double decant as a means to expose the wine to air (two splashes), or limit it (the bottle has little surface area inside for air contact).

The big question is what to do with old fragile wines with sediment, i.e. Old Red Burgundy. I was inspired by Jancis Robinson’s Old Wine Decanter; which is a narrow decanter with a closable top meant to minimize an old wine’s contact with air. I have been using a similarly shaped narrow carafe from IKEA that has a cork closure (doesn’t touch the wine but might limit some ingress of air); $12 and probably works just as well as the Jancis Robinson one.

[john_stimson]

I drink Burgundy, Barolo/Barbaresco, northern rhone, Rioja, and Washington reds, all going back into the 70’s and 80’s, and it’s rare that I actually run into a truly fragile wine. Most of the ones that folks think would be fragile are not, and still benefit from, and actually need air. So I don’t worry about closing up the top of a decanter. If you truly have a very old possibly fragile wine, then I’d just slow ox it.

[James_Billy]

Thanks for all the responses. This confirms a lot of what I thought, and also why I was a bit confused; depending on how it is used, one can double decant as a means to expose the wine to air (two splashes), or limit it (the bottle has little surface area inside for air contact).

The big question is what to do with old fragile wines with sediment, i.e. Old Red Burgundy. I was inspired by Jancis Robinson’s Old Wine Decanter; which is a narrow decanter with a closable top meant to minimize an old wine’s contact with air. I have been using a similarly shaped narrow carafe from IKEA that has a cork closure (doesn’t touch the wine but might limit some ingress of air); $12 and probably works just as well as the Jancis Robinson one.

Noah, why not just use an empty wine bottle?

[Patrick_Taylor]

What’s the deal with Ovaltine?

Be sure to drink more of it.

[Patrick_Taylor]

In my head, I heard this in Jerry Seinfeld’s voice.

We all did.

[Cris_Whetstone]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle. So it’s confusing if you haven’t run across the term before.

As others have mentioned I will return a wine to it’s bottle for transport after removing any sediment left in. At home or at another’s house there is no reason to put it back in the bottle.

As Brian alluded to I think I’ve only heard comments from restaurant staff once or twice here in California about bringing already open bottles. In most cases they have no time to notice anyway or we just let them know we will take care of the wine.

[Rodrigo_B]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle. So it’s confusing if you haven’t run across the term before.

As others have mentioned I will return a wine to it’s bottle for transport after removing any sediment left in. At home or at another’s house there is no reason to put it back in the bottle.

As Brian alluded to I think I’ve only heard comments from restaurant staff once or twice here in California about bringing already open bottles. In most cases they have no time to notice anyway or we just let them know we will take care of the wine.

I mean decanting isn’t really solely used to refer to removing a wine from its sediment, it’s also done all the time to younger wines. Mostly I think of it as referring to transferring it from one vessel to another, often, but not always, one with a larger surface area to aerate the wine. In that sense, you are moving the wine from one vessel to another twice.

[Cris_Whetstone]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle. So it’s confusing if you haven’t run across the term before.

As others have mentioned I will return a wine to it’s bottle for transport after removing any sediment left in. At home or at another’s house there is no reason to put it back in the bottle.

As Brian alluded to I think I’ve only heard comments from restaurant staff once or twice here in California about bringing already open bottles. In most cases they have no time to notice anyway or we just let them know we will take care of the wine.

I mean decanting isn’t really solely used to refer to removing a wine from its sediment, it’s also done all the time to younger wines. Mostly I think of it as referring to transferring it from one vessel to another, often, but not always, one with a larger surface area to aerate the wine. In that sense, you are moving the wine from one vessel to another twice.

Absolutely. And in the most cases I’ve decanted it’s been for wines that are less than mature. I just don’t think I’m getting a bonus decant by returning it to the bottle. Just like I don’t pour it into another decanter for any reason. The decanting has been done. Putting it back in the bottle is about transport and/or presentation. It has nothing to do with ‘decanting’.

When someone is new to wine though they are likely to hear the term “double” as doubling the effect of whatever is being done. I know I always wondered about it until I figured out there really wasn’t any effect to it. It was just sort of misnomer or awkward use of the term.

[Rodrigo_B]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle. So it’s confusing if you haven’t run across the term before.

As others have mentioned I will return a wine to it’s bottle for transport after removing any sediment left in. At home or at another’s house there is no reason to put it back in the bottle.

As Brian alluded to I think I’ve only heard comments from restaurant staff once or twice here in California about bringing already open bottles. In most cases they have no time to notice anyway or we just let them know we will take care of the wine.

I mean decanting isn’t really solely used to refer to removing a wine from its sediment, it’s also done all the time to younger wines. Mostly I think of it as referring to transferring it from one vessel to another, often, but not always, one with a larger surface area to aerate the wine. In that sense, you are moving the wine from one vessel to another twice.

Absolutely. And in the most cases I’ve decanted it’s been for wines that are less than mature. I just don’t think I’m getting a bonus decant by returning it to the bottle. Just like I don’t pour it into another decanter for any reason. The decanting has been done. Putting it back in the bottle is about transport and/or presentation. It has nothing to do with ‘decanting’.

When someone is new to wine though they are likely to hear the term “double” as doubling the effect of whatever is being done. I know I always wondered about it until I figured out there really wasn’t any effect to it. It was just sort of misnomer or awkward use of the term.

I think there’s definitely a benefit to pouring the wine into another vessel. You’re in theory exposing much more of the liquid to air pouring it between containers than it would be if it just sat in the decanter. For example, I’ve had some pretty good success pouring some wines, especially tight, young reds, back and forth between two decanters a few times to quickly open them up.

[Mike_Evans]

I double decant pretty much every older bottle of red wine I take to a dinner or tasting and after doing so with hundreds of 20 to 30 year old bottles from pretty much every major region, I can’t think of a single one that wasn’t better when I poured it one to four hours later than it was when I first opened it. I’m always gentle with both the decant into the decanter and back into the bottle and I think that helps.

[john_stimson]

Decanting discussions are difficult in part because we can’t even agree on what decanting is, and it’s difficult to get agreement upon what decanting does or does not do to a wine once we agree upon what it is.

In my mind, decanting is the act of pouring the wine from one container (often the bottle) into another container. The act exposes the entire contents of a bottle of wine to air (I don’t say 'oxygen" because that’s not the only component of “air”). Slow oxing or letting the wine sit in a decanter does not expose the entire bottle to air, so the act of pouring I believe is the most important part.

Exposing the entire contents of the bottle to air can potentially cause some changes to occur (though not guaranteed). Do these changes happen in a short period (eg one to two minutes or less) and then they are done, or does it start changes that evolve over a much longer time? I’d love to have someone be able to give a more definitive and scholarly opinion about this. My own feeling is that the decant starts a process that evolves over a longer period.

Then pouring the wine back in the bottle exposes the entire contents to more air, further potentially changing the wine. Again, my own feeling from my own experience is that this process again causes changes in the wine that continue to evolve over a longer period. Stoppering the bottle doesn’t just stop the process in it’s tracks.

My own feeling is that leaving the wine static in a decanter doesn’t add much to the pouring part of decanting except adding a few fruit flies.

All of this is likely a fantasy about decanting that I’ve developed over years (40?) of wine appreciation. I’d love to have a more definitive explanation of what’s involved that we could all believe in, but over these last 40 years, it has yet to appear.

[Michael_H2]

Decanting discussions are difficult in part because we can’t even agree on what decanting is, and it’s difficult to get agreement upon what decanting does or does not do to a wine once we agree upon what it is.

In my mind, decanting is the act of pouring the wine from one container (often the bottle) into another container. The act exposes the entire contents of a bottle of wine to air (I don’t say 'oxygen" because that’s not the only component of “air”). Slow oxing or letting the wine sit in a decanter does not expose the entire bottle to air, so the act of pouring I believe is the most important part.

Exposing the entire contents of the bottle to air can potentially cause some changes to occur (though not guaranteed). Do these changes happen in a short period (eg one to two minutes or less) and then they are done, or does it start changes that evolve over a much longer time? I’d love to have someone be able to give a more definitive and scholarly opinion about this. My own feeling is that the decant starts a process that evolves over a longer period.

Then pouring the wine back in the bottle exposes the entire contents to more air, further potentially changing the wine. Again, my own feeling from my own experience is that this process again causes changes in the wine that continue to evolve over a longer period. Stoppering the bottle doesn’t just stop the process in it’s tracks.

My own feeling is that leaving the wine static in a decanter doesn’t add much to the pouring part of decanting except adding a few fruit flies.

All of this is likely a fantasy about decanting that I’ve developed over years (40?) of wine appreciation. I’d love to have a more definitive explanation of what’s involved that we could all believe in, but over these last 40 years, it has yet to appear.

Excellent summary that mirrors my (much less) experience. Double decanting has become my default for Barolo because no matter how old they are, they seem to need that splash of air back and forth to really get going. I also find that Barolo has the trickiest fine sediment that I’ve seen and I find ta careful first decant to get it off the sediment a necessity and the extra air from the second decant quite helpful as well.

Tons of different opinions / experience and I believe a lot if it is informed by the specific wines that we all consume.

[Alan_Rath]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle.

Chris, why do you think that? Whatever exposure and intake of air into the solution happens during the first decant, will happen again during the second decant back into the original bottle, no? If the wine has already been saturated with air during the first decant, then you would be right, but I don’t think that’s the case at all.

[Cris_Whetstone]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle.

Chris, why do you think that? Whatever exposure and intake of air into the solution happens during the first decant, will happen again during the second decant back into the original bottle, no? If the wine has already been saturated with air during the first decant, then you would be right, but I don’t think that’s the case at all.

Experience for one.

But I’m surprised you of all people would question this given your responses up thread and over time. Are you suggesting that you can force changes into the wine by simply pouring into containers over and over again? Is there some effect of pouring that is more powerful than simply having the wine already exposed to the air? Can we somehow project on a wines future by using some ‘x’ number of container transfers?

As John alludes to these discussions about how to treat wines always seem to run off into beliefs that we’ve been handed. I understand there is no real science to back any of it up but that’s kinda the point. Why do we believe that each decant of a wine somehow materially changes it? If so, why are we not using decants more in order to get young wines more drinkable? In my case because I’ve found that such things don’t really change anything. I’ve not found that you can speed up whatever changes a wine sees from air exposure simply by pouring it more. It seems to me it’s about time and not action.

If there is power in decanting perhaps we should all invest in those aerators. How many decants is a run through a Vinturi worth?

[Ben_M_a_n_d_l_e_r]

I might get a bit of flak for this buuuuuut here goes.

The important part of decanting is introducing oxygen to the wine in the first place - this has already been said in the thread. Once you’ve splashed it around a bit, it doesn’t matter very much what you do next - you could put it in a pure Argon atmosphere and it would continue to evolve. The reason is that the rate at which atmospheric oxygen dissolves in wine is very rapid when the surface area is high - splashing into a decanter or even shaking an opened and partly poured bottle (or, pouring through a vinturi) - but the rate at which that dissolved oxygen reacts with the wine components is comparatively slow.

I know not everyone has a DO meter to hand, but I could show you the dissolved oxygen of an unopened wine and then the same wine opened and then stored under nitrogen for 2 hours and it is pretty remarkable.

I basically always double decant, unless it’s a rose and I want it to be pretty.

I do think that slow-oxing is interesting. I haven’t personally done this experiment and haven’t heard from others who have, but I think it’s conceivable that the way in which a wine opens up could depend on the rate at which oxygen becomes available to the system.

[Alan_Rath]

I’ve always thought the ‘double’ was a really bad use of the term. The decanting is done with the first pour. You don’t get double the effect by putting back in the bottle.

Chris, why do you think that? Whatever exposure and intake of air into the solution happens during the first decant, will happen again during the second decant back into the original bottle, no? If the wine has already been saturated with air during the first decant, then you would be right, but I don’t think that’s the case at all.

Experience for one.

But I’m surprised you of all people would question this given your responses up thread and over time. Are you suggesting that you can force changes into the wine by simply pouring into containers over and over again? Is there some effect of pouring that is more powerful than simply having the wine already exposed to the air? Can we somehow project on a wines future by using some ‘x’ number of container transfers?

As John alludes to these discussions about how to treat wines always seem to run off into beliefs that we’ve been handed. I understand there is no real science to back any of it up but that’s kinda the point. Why do we believe that each decant of a wine somehow materially changes it? If so, why are we not using decants more in order to get young wines more drinkable? In my case because I’ve found that such things don’t really change anything. I’ve not found that you can speed up whatever changes a wine sees from air exposure simply by pouring it more. It seems to me it’s about time and not action.

If there is power in decanting perhaps we should all invest in those aerators. How many decants is a run through a Vinturi worth?

I’m not sure what experience could tell you that a single decant achieves all you can get. I’m using some speculation, as I don’t have instrumentation to measure, but I’m confident that pouring from one bottle into another (or even a decanter) doesn’t fully oxygenate a wine. It seems pretty likely that doing it a second time will make a difference. So yes, I think you can accelerate whatever changes are going to happen by splashing more than once. Isn’t that one of the points of swirling wine in your glass?