What "second-tier" grape do you think can be elevated to "Noble Grape" status?

[Jason_L]

How about ditching the asinine category of “noble grapes” instead? Conservatively there are thousands of gallons of trash wine made from “noble grapes” each year while fantastic wines are being made from hundreds of varieties that aren’t in that category, making it a useless designation. Let’s evolve past such a myopic view of the value of varieties and let the ignorant concept of “noble grapes” die.

Well, now that’s an opinion after my own heart. Perhaps this is the point I was hoping to surface by asking the question in the first place…

But let me ask you this: If we dismiss the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, then what do we say of great terroir? There are certainly many underexploited sites but that’s hardly the fault of the land.

I’m not dismissing the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, though the vast amounts of bad wine from those varieties doesn’t help the case that they deserve an exalted status. I dismiss the idea of noble grapes because enough excellent wine is made from so many other other varieties that I’m not convinced there is a small group of varieties that stand apart.

I have wines from well over 100 different varieties in my cellar and I’ve had well-made examples of at least twice that number. While many of the greatest wines I’ve had are from “noble grapes,” I’ve had profound and unique wines from too many other varieties to relegate them to second or even lower class status.

“Noble grapes” isn’t just inaccurate. Treating a handful of varieties as elevated and special devalues varieties that don’t fall into that category and endangers their survival. As wine lovers we should be celebrating the diversity of varieties and styles available, not perpetuating a lazy oversimplification.

Thank you for articulating this point so effectively!

[Jason_L]

I’m sure there’s probably no consensus on Noble Grapes, but that list probably includes

Cabernet Sauvignon
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Syrah
Riesling
Nebbiolo

and might also include

Cabernet Franc
Sauvignon Blanc
Chenin Blanc
Tempranillo
Sangiovese
Grenache
etc etc

The reason why I ask the collective hive-mind is that for many grapes, their ascension to “Noble Grape” status has to do with their refinement, selection and site-matching abilities. Are there grapes that haven’t had enough time and attention to get to the level of the elite grapes, but could?

A friend of mine gave me a couple different wines made from Xarel-lo, the Spanish white wine grape and he told me earnestly that he was coming around to thinking that it was actually a noble grape even if it hadn’t traditionally been given that respect.

What do you all think?

I might go in the other direction and narrow the first tier band. I would think of these as sort of overlapping distributions of quality such that a great expression of Tier 2 is better than an average Tier 1. I think the Tier 1 are probably not controversial (I think a forced choice exercise would result in this top 4) as they represent the grapes from the best mono-variety wines in the world. Tier 2 are grapes that make historically important and sometimes truly great wines (and the upper tail of the distribution contains some of the best wines in the world). Tier 3 are grapes that do very well in particular circumstances but almost never scale heights. Anyway, this is a model. All models are wrong. Some models are more informative than others.

Tier 1
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Riesling
Nebbiolo

Tier 2
Syrah
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Cabernet Franc
Chenin Blanc
Tempranillo
Sangiovese
Grenache

Tier 3
Gamay
Mélon
Cinsault
Mourvèdre
Toroldego
Corvina
Pinot Blanc
Pinot Gris
Mencia

Tier 4
Müller-Thurgau
Trousseau
Poulsard
Bourbelonc
Grenache gris
Roussane
Marsanne
Grolleau
Tannat

…

Tier 11
Sauvignon Blanc

I think this is a really interesting list! How would you characterize Tier 4?

[Otto_Forsberg]

Bourbelonc

[Nathan_V]

I’m not dismissing the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, though the vast amounts of bad wine from those varieties doesn’t help the case that they deserve an exalted status. I dismiss the idea of noble grapes because enough excellent wine is made from so many other other varieties that I’m not convinced there is a small group of varieties that stand apart.

I have wines from well over 100 different varieties in my cellar and I’ve had well-made examples of at least twice that number. While many of the greatest wines I’ve had are from “noble grapes,” I’ve had profound and unique wines from too many other varieties to relegate them to second or even lower class status.

“Noble grapes” isn’t just inaccurate. Treating a handful of varieties as elevated and special devalues varieties that don’t fall into that category and endangers their survival. As wine lovers we should be celebrating the diversity of varieties and styles available, not perpetuating a lazy oversimplification.

I have a fundamentally different perspective. Hierarchies exist and are real. Maybe because I think of things as distributions and not rigid it means a different thing to me. My forced choice hierarchy might not even reflect what my consumption report shows (although it kind of does, Pinot Noir, Nebbiolo, Riesling, then Chardonnay/Chenin Blanc (tie) YTD).

I love Gamay, Sangiovese, Poulsard, Sémillon, etc., etc. but I think that can be distinguished from Tiers.

[Nathan_V]

Bourbelonc

Fixed spelling.

[Nathan_V]

I might go in the other direction and narrow the first tier band. I would think of these as sort of overlapping distributions of quality such that a great expression of Tier 2 is better than an average Tier 1. I think the Tier 1 are probably not controversial (I think a forced choice exercise would result in this top 4) as they represent the grapes from the best mono-variety wines in the world. Tier 2 are grapes that make historically important and sometimes truly great wines (and the upper tail of the distribution contains some of the best wines in the world). Tier 3 are grapes that do very well in particular circumstances but almost never scale heights. Anyway, this is a model. All models are wrong. Some models are more informative than others.

Tier 1
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Riesling
Nebbiolo

Tier 2
Syrah
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Cabernet Franc
Chenin Blanc
Tempranillo
Sangiovese
Grenache

Tier 3
Gamay
Mélon
Cinsault
Mourvèdre
Toroldego
Corvina
Pinot Blanc
Pinot Gris
Mencia

Tier 4
Müller-Thurgau
Trousseau
Poulsard
Bourbelonc
Grenache gris
Roussane
Marsanne
Grolleau
Tannat

…

Tier 11
Sauvignon Blanc

I think this is a really interesting list! How would you characterize Tier 4?

To be honest, I haven’t worked it all out yet.

[Marshall_Manning]

Definitely Tempranillo, Grenache and Mourvedre.
Definitely NOT Roussanne and Marsanne.

Try a 1990 Chave Hermitage Blanc. Then revise your statement.

[Marshall_Manning]

How about ditching the asinine category of “noble grapes” instead? Conservatively there are thousands of gallons of trash wine made from “noble grapes” each year while fantastic wines are being made from hundreds of varieties that aren’t in that category, making it a useless designation. Let’s evolve past such a myopic view of the value of varieties and let the ignorant concept of “noble grapes” die.

Can we give Mike a round of applause for this?

[Nathan_V]

Definitely Tempranillo, Grenache and Mourvedre.
Definitely NOT Roussanne and Marsanne.

Try a 1990 Chave Hermitage Blanc. Then revise your statement.

Outlier.

[Howard_Cooper]

Agreed on Merlot, but I might relegate it to 2nd tier simply because it hasn’t produced nearly as many great wines on its own as CS has, and has probably had as much attention given their widespread plantings and proximity.

I love Aglianico, Nerello and Sylvaner very much. I think Aglianico definitely could ascend to a top rank based on its makeup. Nerello Mascalese is fascinating but if I remember Ian d’Agata’s book correctly, there’s rather poor record keeping on Etna and the amount of vineyards purportedly planted to NM is heavily disputed. There may be quite a lot of great Etna wine that is descended from Grenache, Sangiovese and who knows what else. Sylvaner certainly has balance and site specificity - and I think it could do a lot of the same things Gruner does with the same level of attention. Also, not including Gruner in the Noble list is a big oversight.

Merlot has not produced enough great wines? Look at Pomerols and St. Emilions. How many Cabs sell for as much as Petrus and Ausone?

That’s a very fair point! Maybe I was too hasty. From my perspective, Merlot is planted in as many countries and terroirs as Cabernet Sauvignon and only matches the quality of CS wines in just a few communes in Bordeaux. Then again, perhaps vintners relegated Merlot to less-prime locations because they believed Cab Sauv deserved the best spots. Hmm

Not really an expert on soil, etc., but as I understand it, at least in Bordeaux, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon tend to be grown on different types of soil (Merlot on more clay based soil and Cab on more gravelly soil). You could be correct in California that Cabernet Sauvignon is grown on the best soils and Merlot is grown on lesser soils or it could be that in California the soils tend to be better for Cabernet Sauvignon than for Merlot. Also, California tends to have an issue where whatever variety is hot tends to become heavily grown in the Central Valley where probably virtually no wine is any good. So, when Merlot got to be in fashion, a lot of people really started to grow Merlot in places that make virtually no good wines. This would not impact the quality of Merlots (or Chardonnay or PN or whatever else is in fashion) grown in the places best suited for the grape, but does really impact public perception of the grape variety.

[Howard_Cooper]

I feel like cab franc has a lot of room to grow and the potential to make great wines from a wider number of wineries and regions. I wonder if cooler spots like Oregon, Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara might start developing the grape more.

I guess the flipside is that the herbal nature and lighter body may prevent it from being a grape that has wider appeal beyond wine geek types and Europhiles. You can crank up the ripeness and oak and make a more crowd-pleasing wine (e.g. Paleo), but I’m not sure the big cab crowd will like those as much as cab and cab blends.

Maybe I am a snob, but I would rather think about “noble grapes” in terms of what people on this board like rather than what the “crowd” likes, esp. what the “big cab crowd” likes. The “big Cab crowd” already does enough damage to the world of wine.

[Chris_Seiber]

I feel like cab franc has a lot of room to grow and the potential to make great wines from a wider number of wineries and regions. I wonder if cooler spots like Oregon, Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara might start developing the grape more.

I guess the flipside is that the herbal nature and lighter body may prevent it from being a grape that has wider appeal beyond wine geek types and Europhiles. You can crank up the ripeness and oak and make a more crowd-pleasing wine (e.g. Paleo), but I’m not sure the big cab crowd will like those as much as cab and cab blends.

Maybe I am a snob, but I would rather think about “noble grapes” in terms of what people on this board like rather than what the “crowd” likes, esp. what the “big cab crowd” likes. The “big Cab crowd” already does enough damage to the world of wine.

I lean your way on that point. My comment was more wondering if enough good wineries will make serious efforts at premium cab franc, if the appeal of the variety is mostly just to wine geeks and doesn’t have broader restaurant and retail sales.

[Howard_Cooper]

I feel like cab franc has a lot of room to grow and the potential to make great wines from a wider number of wineries and regions. I wonder if cooler spots like Oregon, Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara might start developing the grape more.

I guess the flipside is that the herbal nature and lighter body may prevent it from being a grape that has wider appeal beyond wine geek types and Europhiles. You can crank up the ripeness and oak and make a more crowd-pleasing wine (e.g. Paleo), but I’m not sure the big cab crowd will like those as much as cab and cab blends.

Maybe I am a snob, but I would rather think about “noble grapes” in terms of what people on this board like rather than what the “crowd” likes, esp. what the “big cab crowd” likes. The “big Cab crowd” already does enough damage to the world of wine.

I lean your way on that point. My comment was more wondering if enough good wineries will make serious efforts at premium cab franc, if the appeal of the variety is mostly just to wine geeks and doesn’t have broader restaurant and retail sales.

My experience with Cab Franc is mostly with Cheval Blanc and Loire Cab Franc. How big are restaurant sales in France of these Loire reds?

[larry_schaffer]

Zinfandel. We know it’s about 1000 year older than that Cab upstart.

What - you didn’t mention Mission? Come on, my friend . . .

[Yao_C]

Definitely Tempranillo, Grenache and Mourvedre.
Definitely NOT Roussanne and Marsanne.

Try a 1990 Chave Hermitage Blanc. Then revise your statement.

Exception that proves the rule, no? Like Rayas with Grenache or Ganevat with Savagnin

[Jason_L]

Definitely Tempranillo, Grenache and Mourvedre.
Definitely NOT Roussanne and Marsanne.

Try a 1990 Chave Hermitage Blanc. Then revise your statement.

Exception that proves the rule, no? Like Rayas with Grenache or Ganevat with Savagnin

Another interesting way of looking at the question - if there is some sort of objective quality we can discern from wine, then how many grapes have been made into “perfect” wines? Even if only one producer or one vintage (and maybe even only a certain point in the aging curve) has hit that ideal harmony in bottle, they’ve proven it’s possible.

[Jason_L]

Zinfandel. We know it’s about 1000 year older than that Cab upstart.

What - you didn’t mention Mission? Come on, my friend . . .

Hey, who knows? Some pretty good Listán Negro being made!

[RyanC]

Gruner is the world’s most underrated grape, by some margin. Based on intensity, depth, complexity, and especially ageability, I think it deserves top-tier status.

Tempranillo comes to mind too, and I think Assyrtiko has potential to get there except I don’t know how it ages. I think the full potential of Melon is unexplored and unrealized.

If Merlot isn’t already in the top tier, it should be.

[Marshall_Manning]

Definitely Tempranillo, Grenache and Mourvedre.
Definitely NOT Roussanne and Marsanne.

Try a 1990 Chave Hermitage Blanc. Then revise your statement.

Outlier.

Many other vintages, too. It’s just that the '90 is superb right now. Saying it’s an “outlier” just shows that those grapes can make great wine if treated properly. So more people need to.

[Vince_T]

Mourvedre. Bandol from the likes of Tempier and Chateau Pradeaux rocks.

Hell yeah. We certainly know they can age, and that they have site specificity. Would love to see a more concerted effort to unravel Mourvedre’s potential.

There’s a lot being done in the US, just check out all the site-specific expressions of Mataro/Mourvedre from D&R, Bedrock, Sandlands, Ridge, etc. Evangelho, Shake Ridge, Enz, plenty of sites in the Central Coast, etc… not to mention those doing the super rich thing like SQN and Andremily.