What "second-tier" grape do you think can be elevated to "Noble Grape" status?

[Brady_Daniels]

I thought another requirement for noble grapes was they improved with age?

I agree with Mike Evans about ditching the concept entirely. It creates a black/white world-view, and even the words reek of wine snobbery.

Honestly it’s aged as well as masculine/feminine wine descriptors.

[Gabe_Berk]

Sauvignon Blanc
Tempranillo

[Jason_L]

Can’t believe Merlot was not included in the list of already noble grapes. I don’t care for it, but I have to respect it.

As for grapes that should be noble but are not currently recognized as such:

Aglianico
Nerello Mascalese
Sylvaner (a bit of a stretch perhaps)

Agreed on Merlot, but I might relegate it to 2nd tier simply because it hasn’t produced nearly as many great wines on its own as CS has, and has probably had as much attention given their widespread plantings and proximity.

I love Aglianico, Nerello and Sylvaner very much. I think Aglianico definitely could ascend to a top rank based on its makeup. Nerello Mascalese is fascinating but if I remember Ian d’Agata’s book correctly, there’s rather poor record keeping on Etna and the amount of vineyards purportedly planted to NM is heavily disputed. There may be quite a lot of great Etna wine that is descended from Grenache, Sangiovese and who knows what else. Sylvaner certainly has balance and site specificity - and I think it could do a lot of the same things Gruner does with the same level of attention. Also, not including Gruner in the Noble list is a big oversight.

Merlot has not produced enough great wines? Look at Pomerols and St. Emilions. How many Cabs sell for as much as Petrus and Ausone?

That’s a very fair point! Maybe I was too hasty. From my perspective, Merlot is planted in as many countries and terroirs as Cabernet Sauvignon and only matches the quality of CS wines in just a few communes in Bordeaux. Then again, perhaps vintners relegated Merlot to less-prime locations because they believed Cab Sauv deserved the best spots. Hmm

[Jason_L]

Mourvedre. Bandol from the likes of Tempier and Chateau Pradeaux rocks.

Hell yeah. We certainly know they can age, and that they have site specificity. Would love to see a more concerted effort to unravel Mourvedre’s potential.

[Jason_L]

Palomino Fino
Chenin Blanc
Sauvignon Blanc
Viura

I was wondering if someone would suggest Palomino! Viura really surprises me - although I guess it’s presence in Lopez de Heredia Blanco is evidence enough that great things can be done!

[Kelly_Walker]

Aglianico

[Jason_L]

How about ditching the asinine category of “noble grapes” instead? Conservatively there are thousands of gallons of trash wine made from “noble grapes” each year while fantastic wines are being made from hundreds of varieties that aren’t in that category, making it a useless designation. Let’s evolve past such a myopic view of the value of varieties and let the ignorant concept of “noble grapes” die.

Well, now that’s an opinion after my own heart. Perhaps this is the point I was hoping to surface by asking the question in the first place…

But let me ask you this: If we dismiss the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, then what do we say of great terroir? There are certainly many underexploited sites but that’s hardly the fault of the land.

[Jason_L]

Definitely all of both your tier 1 and tier 2 lists, plus Merlot, Marsanne, Roussanne, Semillon, Zinfandel, Malbec, and a good number of Spanish and Italian grapes.

All proven of making outstanding wines in multiple places in the world with desirable variety in both winemaking style and varietal response to their environment.

I personally don’t really like the term, but if we’re going to use it I think we should use it much more broadly to include most of the proven quality winemaking grapes as opposed to, say, Muscadine, unproven hybrids and dud selections. To me, a “noble” grape” is basically one capable of making fine wine.

I like your personal definition as it’s fairly inclusive - but you mentioning a Vitis Labrusca variety, Muscadine raises the question - what if Labrusca grapes are just as capable of making fine wine, but they don’t have the benefit of two thousand+ years of selection, study and refinement, like Vinifera?

[Jason_L]

I thought another requirement for noble grapes was they improved with age?

I agree with Mike Evans about ditching the concept entirely. It creates a black/white world-view, and even the words reek of wine snobbery.

Honestly it’s aged as well as masculine/feminine wine descriptors.

I’m also skeptical about the usage of “Noble Grape” which is why I put it in quotes to begin with. Useful for starting the discussion but I’d be happy to replace the idea entirely.

Quite a bit of the terminology surrounding wine certainly feels dated - when I was learning about wine, much of the flow of information and lore was very controlled and originated with English or French experts. So they had an outsize influence on how subsequent generations thought about and described wine. There’s really too many people from every country putting on their ascot or their beret when typing out a tasting note. I think that’s changing now that there’s much more access.

[Chris_Seiber]

DEFINITELY NOT GRK!

Dan Kravitz

Why not GRK?!?

Can we all agree that in order to be a noble grape, you have to have at least one vowel in the name?

[Chris_Seiber]

I feel like cab franc has a lot of room to grow and the potential to make great wines from a wider number of wineries and regions. I wonder if cooler spots like Oregon, Santa Cruz and Santa Barbara might start developing the grape more.

I guess the flipside is that the herbal nature and lighter body may prevent it from being a grape that has wider appeal beyond wine geek types and Europhiles. You can crank up the ripeness and oak and make a more crowd-pleasing wine (e.g. Paleo), but I’m not sure the big cab crowd will like those as much as cab and cab blends.

[Mike_Evans]

Definitely all of both your tier 1 and tier 2 lists, plus Merlot, Marsanne, Roussanne, Semillon, Zinfandel, Malbec, and a good number of Spanish and Italian grapes.

All proven of making outstanding wines in multiple places in the world with desirable variety in both winemaking style and varietal response to their environment.

I personally don’t really like the term, but if we’re going to use it I think we should use it much more broadly to include most of the proven quality winemaking grapes as opposed to, say, Muscadine, unproven hybrids and dud selections. To me, a “noble” grape” is basically one capable of making fine wine.

I like your personal definition as it’s fairly inclusive - but you mentioning a Vitis Labrusca variety, Muscadine raises the question - what if Labrusca grapes are just as capable of making fine wine, but they don’t have the benefit of two thousand+ years of selection, study and refinement, like Vinifera?

I’m not being deliberately contrary, but Muscadines are Vitis rotundifolia, not Vitis labrusca.

[Jason_L]

Definitely all of both your tier 1 and tier 2 lists, plus Merlot, Marsanne, Roussanne, Semillon, Zinfandel, Malbec, and a good number of Spanish and Italian grapes.

All proven of making outstanding wines in multiple places in the world with desirable variety in both winemaking style and varietal response to their environment.

I personally don’t really like the term, but if we’re going to use it I think we should use it much more broadly to include most of the proven quality winemaking grapes as opposed to, say, Muscadine, unproven hybrids and dud selections. To me, a “noble” grape” is basically one capable of making fine wine.

I like your personal definition as it’s fairly inclusive - but you mentioning a Vitis Labrusca variety, Muscadine raises the question - what if Labrusca grapes are just as capable of making fine wine, but they don’t have the benefit of two thousand+ years of selection, study and refinement, like Vinifera?

I’m not being deliberately contrary, but Muscadines are Vitis rotundifolia, not Vitis labrusca.

Correct information comes before ego! Thank you.

[Markus_S]

How about ditching the asinine category of “noble grapes” instead? Conservatively there are thousands of gallons of trash wine made from “noble grapes” each year while fantastic wines are being made from hundreds of varieties that aren’t in that category, making it a useless designation. Let’s evolve past such a myopic view of the value of varieties and let the ignorant concept of “noble grapes” die.

Hear hear!!
The thing with “nobility” is that nobles get to create the class itself, so is therefore self-selecting and limiting.

[Eric_Ifune]

Gruner Veltliner
Encruzado
Touriga Nacional
Palomino Fina

[Jason_L]

Gruner Veltliner
Encruzado
Touriga Nacional
Palomino Fina

I don’t think I know what wines Encruzado goes into. What should I check out?

[Eric_Ifune]

Dao whites from Portugal.

[Mike_Evans]

How about ditching the asinine category of “noble grapes” instead? Conservatively there are thousands of gallons of trash wine made from “noble grapes” each year while fantastic wines are being made from hundreds of varieties that aren’t in that category, making it a useless designation. Let’s evolve past such a myopic view of the value of varieties and let the ignorant concept of “noble grapes” die.

Well, now that’s an opinion after my own heart. Perhaps this is the point I was hoping to surface by asking the question in the first place…

But let me ask you this: If we dismiss the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, then what do we say of great terroir? There are certainly many underexploited sites but that’s hardly the fault of the land.

I’m not dismissing the idea of noble grapes because some winemakers make bad wine from them, though the vast amounts of bad wine from those varieties doesn’t help the case that they deserve an exalted status. I dismiss the idea of noble grapes because enough excellent wine is made from so many other other varieties that I’m not convinced there is a small group of varieties that stand apart.

I have wines from well over 100 different varieties in my cellar and I’ve had well-made examples of at least twice that number. While many of the greatest wines I’ve had are from “noble grapes,” I’ve had profound and unique wines from too many other varieties to relegate them to second or even lower class status.

“Noble grapes” isn’t just inaccurate. Treating a handful of varieties as elevated and special devalues varieties that don’t fall into that category and endangers their survival. As wine lovers we should be celebrating the diversity of varieties and styles available, not perpetuating a lazy oversimplification.

[David_Bu3ker]

“Noble grapes” isn’t just inaccurate. Treating a handful of varieties as elevated and special devalues varieties that don’t fall into that category and endangers their survival. As wine lovers we should be celebrating the diversity of varieties and styles available, not perpetuating a lazy oversimplification.

This.

The OP list of what is “noble” falls so short of the mark as to be easily dismissible.

[Nathan_V]

I’m sure there’s probably no consensus on Noble Grapes, but that list probably includes

Cabernet Sauvignon
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Syrah
Riesling
Nebbiolo

and might also include

Cabernet Franc
Sauvignon Blanc
Chenin Blanc
Tempranillo
Sangiovese
Grenache
etc etc

The reason why I ask the collective hive-mind is that for many grapes, their ascension to “Noble Grape” status has to do with their refinement, selection and site-matching abilities. Are there grapes that haven’t had enough time and attention to get to the level of the elite grapes, but could?

A friend of mine gave me a couple different wines made from Xarel-lo, the Spanish white wine grape and he told me earnestly that he was coming around to thinking that it was actually a noble grape even if it hadn’t traditionally been given that respect.

What do you all think?

I might go in the other direction and narrow the first tier band. I would think of these as sort of overlapping distributions of quality such that a great expression of Tier 2 is better than an average Tier 1. I think the Tier 1 are probably not controversial (I think a forced choice exercise would result in this top 4) as they represent the grapes from the best mono-variety wines in the world. Tier 2 are grapes that make historically important and sometimes truly great wines (and the upper tail of the distribution contains some of the best wines in the world). Tier 3 are grapes that do very well in particular circumstances but almost never scale heights. Anyway, this is a model. All models are wrong. Some models are more informative than others.

Tier 1
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Riesling
Nebbiolo

Tier 2
Syrah
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Cabernet Franc
Chenin Blanc
Tempranillo
Sangiovese
Grenache

Tier 3
Gamay
Mélon
Cinsault
Mourvèdre
Toroldego
Corvina
Pinot Blanc
Pinot Gris
Mencia

Tier 4
Müller-Thurgau
Trousseau
Poulsard
Bourboulenc
Grenache gris
Roussane
Marsanne
Grolleau
Tannat

…

Tier 11
Sauvignon Blanc