What say you about dumb phases?

WINE TALK
1

I have seen wine makers post about dumb phases, the longest posts by Kent Rassmussen (I’ll find them and post when I do) talking about PS. I’ve also seen people who have a lot of experience with old CS and have been able to follow the wines over years and say that “traditionally-styled” CS (Corison comes to mind) goes dumb at around age 10 and stays that way for a couple years. I think I’ve seen people talk about BDX going dumb.

To be clear, a lot of wines are closed for a few years before opening at all. I’m talking about a wine that is open and beautiful but then goes dumb (closed, boring, muted, etc.) for a period and then opens again.

So, do you think dumb phases exist? Have you experienced it? What wines do/don’t go dumb and reemerge? Anything other thoughts, comments, or rants?

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2

I’m decades in to my own dumb phase! I do hope it ends.

3

Well, I do teach middle school [wink.gif]

and I think dumb phases occur in wine too.

4

I think it happens, but hard to say (without tasting multiple bottles over a short interval) if it’s truly a dumb phase for the wine vs. just bottle variation or storage variation in any individual case.

5

I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but I’ve never experienced an open wine, that then closes, only to reopen again.

6

Rhone whites from Marsanne and Roussanne
Heck, how about red Burgs? Open temporarily, then shut tight.

7

They tell me that it’s true, so who am I to argue.

8

I worked the tasting room of a small winery back in the '93-'95 timeframe. We had an '88 merlot that I was told was open on release before I worked there. It stayed shut down almost the whole time I was there only opening up in the final few months before I left. I had started to believe the wine wasn’t really that good but once it opened back up, turns out it was fairly good if not as good as the '89 or '90.

As it was coming out of the phase, the bottle variation became obvious with some bottles being open and others still closed. Eventually all of them opened up but it took a few months before we could be sure how a bottle would show and we ended up taking it off the tasting table during this time as it was just too inconsistent. BTW, When they were in the closed phase, they were all closed.

Maybe not the dumb phase you are asking about but the only wine that I got to taste multiple bottles of weekly and can remember going through such an obvious transformation. The other wines showed less change and what changes they did show were more gradual.

9

I don’t doubt it, but I don’t drink those wines.

10

I was going to say that the most dramatic example is Condrieu, which can be very fruity young and then seemingly dead for many, many years. But it’s true of lots of reds, too, that are accessible young and then tighten up.

On the other hand, “It must be shut down” can be an excuse for a bad wine or a bad bottle, or one that wasn’t decanted long enough.

So I think it is both real and utter bullshit, depending on the circumstances.

11

I’m always puzzled by why people are puzzled about this. I regard it as a fairly widespread phenomenon in the better wines in Chablis, Red Burg, Bordeaux, Loire whites (eg Huet), Barolo, northern rhone (reds-I don’t have much experience with the whites). In fact, for me it’s a bit unusual and surprising when a wine from one of these regions doesn’t go through a dumb phase.

12

I’ve had petite sirah’s that were new releases through bottles that were 25 years old (yeah, I know not ‘old’ compared to some others… ) and I have first hand experienced it. I cannot say I have with other varietals, but then again, I don’t drink much wine from France, and have not had anything that old from other regions. (i.e., I can only say this for Cali varietals.)

As previously stated, the wine just ‘shuts down’ for a period of time, then recovers, usually in a big way. The difficulty is determining what wines are in a dumb phase and which wines are dead/over the hill…

13

Huet is another great example.

Note that all those wines are high in acid, with the exception perhaps of Bordeaux from more recent decades, and those in fact tend to be more accessible for a longer time.

14

I try not to have them, but sometimes I can’t help it. :slight_smile:

15

Red Burgundy absolutely has a young, open, forward phase before closing down, frequently hard as nails showing nothing at all. I have only been buying and storing wines long enough to see some of these begin to emerge, but I have full faith that these wines are not done for but will blossom into a mature, open and accessible form. Open a really good 2005 red Burgundy right now and see what you get. I would bet on tons of nothing, even with an extensive decant. Doesn’t mean the wine is done.

Here is the thing, to me, wine seldom shows nothing when it is done or over the hill. The most common indicator that a wine is over is oxidation. The next is a sort of “fallen apart” character, but in either case there is a feeling that things have really gone off the track. This is easily distinguished from the sense that a wine has good material remaining but refuses to show it.

Lastly, this of course applies to other regions as well. I remember buying a case of a 2004 St. Emilion and thinking at the time that it was a boring, not very good wine or had been stored poorly. Cut to last month I open a bottle and it is singing. I never had that wine in its extreme youth to know if it closed or was never open, but I’d bet money on the former.

16

I think you just described CdP. These wines always show primary up front and then when that goes away, the wines go through this for 7-10 years before opening back up again.

17

Happens to some wines, not all. Usually what’s happening is the compounds that give the wine its primary appeal have started to fade, mutate, polymerize, decompose, whatever, and they haven’t yet been replaced by something that you can detect as easily.

But it really depends on the wine.

Also on storage - you have bacteria and yeasts that start kicking in at certain temperatures, or at least that go into high gear at higher temperatures, and that can play a role too because they mask or combine with some of the other compounds that you experienced earlier on.

And finally, a lot of times when people say the wine is closed it’s faulty memory and/or tasting. Bad day at the office, a cold, fatigue - you don’t taste things the same way you did on another day. And the wine may not be as good as you remember it either, which is probably more common than not.

18

Overnoy Poulsard does not shut down, as far as I can tell. Just load up on that and you’ll be fine.

19

I believe in “dumb phases.” Case in point, last week we had a tasting that focused on Maison Ilan. The first flight was: (1) 2009 Maison Ilan Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Les Chaffots and (2) 2010 Maison Ilan Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Les Chaffots. Although both had a beautiful nose, the 2009 was completely shut down on the palate whereas the 2010 was drinking beautifully. The experience with the 2009 stood in stark contrast to when we tried it in October of 2012.

Dont have an explanation but am a firm believer that “dumb phases” exist. Thankfully Cellar Tracker exists to help avoid them.

20

I believe wines go into weird places during their development. 2005 Torre Muga is one of my faves…opened one on Sunday and it was not in a good place. Bottle was totally fine, wine just wasn’t singing…

The 2005 Muga Aro on the other hand…stunning.