I’ve been thinking about this and going to search for the “new paradigm” thread.
I think there’s been a major shift in farming/winemaking in Piedmont to where the old ways of aging just don’t apply anymore.
There are a lot less VA issues in modern winemaking and a ton better farming (and not just about pushing ripeness) that emphasizes freshness in the wines.
I’ve done horizontals almost every year for about 8-9 years now and especially starting with the 13 vintage, there has been a marked shift in approachability. 19, 20, and 21 really drive this home and I’d imagine that 23 will be similar when they get released
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Even 2013 which was a pretty firmly structured vintage at or within a year of release has really loosened up and is quite approachable now, really showing finesse.
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Grower Champagne-went from new interesting winemakers that then became unaffordable and hard to find. I have been exploring champagne for the last few years and trying tons of new producers. I am generally excited about the region but it seems now there is a sea of somewhat inexperienced winemakers adhering to a dogmatic zero zero or low dosage approach that is producing bottles of face ripping acidity with the complexity of lemon and bubbles. Will they age no one knows, when is the best window to drink them-not sure. The region moving forward and growing is a good thing however being in year 3 of production, making no winemaking changes based on wildly different weather, ripeness and growing seasons and then asking $200 bottle may be slightly the wrong direction.
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Wherever Retsina is made is the most over-rated wine region, because on a scale of 50-100, Retsina gets a 45. But I think that “Greece” is too imprecise an answer.
What vintage is this?
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I thought about this category and decided against it taking the top honor. No question there’s been a boom in grower production, style, and prices. I decided against it because no other region really provides an alternative outlet for bubbles…yet. While there are the occasional exceptions around the world, they are very limited. With the success of grower Champagne, it does look like we’re seeing some take on the challenge such as some out of Oregon. The other thing is I don’t see a real growing interest in Champagne outside of the crowd that’s been interested for many years. Theise deserves some credit for expanding the popularity but that was 20 years ago and it was different than the way some have lusted after Napa, BDX, Burgundy in the past. Most people still only open Champagne for “special occasions” and aren’t willing to pay the tariff (bad choice of wording today!) for routine drinking.
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I don’t know. They usually put the vinatge after a symbol that looks like this: ©
And yours is the special reserve double ABV bottling.
Monday.
Monday morning, actually.
It inspired a song by The Mamas & the Papas.
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Actually I believe that the 1855 Classification was about the 5th over two decades. And I believe it incorporated both tastings and price.
The story goes that Chateau Lanessan was so sick of requests for samples that they didn’t send any in 1855.
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“Grower Champagne-went from new interesting winemakers that then became unaffordable and hard to find. I have been exploring champagne for the last few years and trying tons of new producers. I am generally excited about the region but it seems now there is a sea of somewhat inexperienced winemakers adhering to a dogmatic zero zero or low dosage approach that is producing bottles of face ripping acidity with the complexity of lemon and bubbles. Will they age no one knows, when is the best window to drink them-not sure. The region moving forward and growing is a good thing however being in year 3 of production, making no winemaking changes based on wildly different weather, ripeness and growing seasons and then asking $200 bottle may be slightly the wrong direction.”
I think you are too harsh. There are still many grower Champagnes that are priced comparably with entry-level Grand Marques. I used to represent two of them:
Champagne Jean Laurent
Champagne Bertrand-Delespierre
Both make excellent wines IMO and both have good press. Both sell basic NVs in the ~$50 range and vintages are in general <$100 (current releases: 2010 for Jean Laurent, 2015 for B-D).
With recent warmer vintages, acid levels are generally much lower than previously, pH much higher. In those circumstances, I think it makes perfect sense to lower dosage.
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I can see the potential distinction between “most overrated by critics” and “most overpriced,” but they seem pretty closely correlated.
I nominate high-end Grand Cru Burgundy and Napa Cabernet based on pricing. I love them both and I even buy some pricey Napa Cabs. No wine is worth (to me) the prices high-end GC Burgs fetch. So that gets my vote.
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So, slutty Nebbiolo? 
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All makes sense to me, David. One of the reasons I chose Piedmont Neb was that I think overall price escalation there has caught up to mid level Burgundy. Maybe the distinction wasn’t always that great in the first place but I think it was considerably easier to find roughly equal complexity at a considerably lower price in Piedmont. Again with the caveat that the two are not interchangeable in taste for everyone. Today in the range of maybe $45-125 I think that gap has narrowed considerably and maybe be just about equal. I could be wrong as I’ve been in Argentina and/or not buying much from either Burgundy or Piedmont for several years and don’t monitor it too closely.
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Yes. Of what I’ve liked, the growing and winemaking have clearly improved, so they aren’t needing to resolve rough, brutal characteristics. But, as I noted, I’ve had some great ones around age 15 that seem 20 years from their drinking window. I’ve had a few that drank well younger.
The ones I don’t like seem amateurish winemaking to me. They’re attemping early appeal but achieve mediocrity or failure. A couple you could say suffered from premox.
I mostly don’t keep track of all the incidental bottles that people bring to dinners or double-blind us at various winery work days. My most recent experiences with Vajra have been mighty impressive low end (not B/B) wines that drink very well and are reasonably priced. They seem to be working with what their various sources want to be and treating and pricing them accordingly. I think one of the good drinking younger Barolos I’ve had was from them.
What I’ve had on the low-end (non-B/B) is very often curated by people who’ve done the legwork and are on a budget. Basically wine and restaurant industry types pouring what they’ve discovered and drink, rather than tech bros who threw money at points. I don’t know about the true batting average for what makes the market here, but there seem to be quite a few impressively expressive ready to drink and reasonably priced Piemonte Nebs these days. That doesn’t include the btg Lange I had a few nights ago that was serviceable, having traded aromatics for oomph.
I guess it was this!
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It sounds to me like you’re talking about roughly 20 years ago. I find the overall quality in Barolo/Barbaresco to be higher than ever, and completely deserving of their reputation. Maybe you’re tasting producers I haven’t had.
There was a three level classification done by Thomas Jefferson in 1787 which may have been the original attempt. When you think about France’s national pride with a wine classification done by a Francophile American who was not yet president…
Another classification was done for taxation in 1840. None survived the test of time.
I should have said the accepted, long lasting classification was the 1855.
It is my understanding that 1855 was based essentially on price with the reputation of the wine also considered.
Emperor Napolean lll had the 1855 classification done to showcase French wines to the world at the Paris World’s Fair in 1855. He asked the Chamber of Commerce in Bordeaux to come up with a ranking which they did following the input by the negotiants/wine trade.
If I am not mistaken, the difference between the First Growths and Second Growths was about 500 Francs from 3000+ Francs which was what the Four First Growth barrels sold for to 2500-2700 Francs for Second Growth price ranking and the difference to Third Growths was another 2100-2400 Francs, etc., etc. down the rankings. The quality and the reputations of the wines were considered but were not clearly sourced/delineated.
BTY, Lafite and Latour were known as Chateau de La Fitte and Latour Segur at that time.
I have been looking at several sources, each with additional input.
I agree that this is in the running. Years ago, I thought the growers generally had the big houses beaten at all but the very top level (with at least a couple of growers competing there too). Now, there’s so much new wave hipster Champagne out there that I don’t even try new grower/producers nearly as much as I used to. And a lot of it is so expensive! It’s almost as if Terry Theise and the few other people championing these wines many years ago did too well, and in many cases now, the emperor has no clothes. Plus, some of the genuinely good ones that have been around for a while now cost so much. Worth noting: I still love Champagne and drink mostly grower producers. There’s still a lot to love, despite these complaints.
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Well, it should sound like the two bottles I referred to as premoxed were recently tasted and about 5 years out from vintage, because I said that. I also said I’ve had excellent ones with 15 or so years on them that were very young to my preference (not a bad thing at all). I’ve given a general idea what my preferences are, which is subjective, and that many people clearly like wines I don’t. I reminded that I’m not the person who posted Piemonte wines are overrated, just replying that it’s a tough region to jump into. And, I noted I’m tasting these passively from what other people have brought.
Would you disagree that Piemonte may be the most difficult region to jump into and get a grasp on?
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