If you don’t think they would lose money by changing their product mix, you must think they are idiots. Why do you think they have changed their product mix. I have to believe it is because they believe they can make more money with PN nad Chardonnay than with the other grape varieties.
An effort at clarity here, because we seem to be comparing apples and tectonic plates:
Three often mentioned are Bordeaux, Burgundy and Napa Valley.
Bordeaux produces ~750,000,000 bottles from 250,000 acres.
I used to import Chateau Haut Maurin Bordeaux Sauvignon Blanc (my old company still does) which retails for ~$12 - 15. Between drinking, gifting, cooking (gasp!) pouring at parties and charity events (NOT wine charity events!), and donating to a local auction that is not at all about wine, I go through ~15 - 20 cases a year.
Here’s a quote from the Wine Advocate:
“It’s one of those cheap white Bordeaux that you might think nothing much of; yes, some pleasant gooseberry and nettle notes on the nose, palate clean and balanced, a citric edge on the finish. Then the next minute…voilà! You’ve finished the bottle.” The rating was 86 points. Is this overrated?
Here’s another quote from the Wine Advocate: “From barrel, this was decidedly muscular and introverted, but élevage has certainly tamed it, delivering a result that’s much more sensual and charming than I could have imagined.” 95 points. $3462. 2021 Petrus. Is this overrated?
Burgundy produces ~100,000,000 bottles from ~75,000 acres. I used to import Damian Martin Macon Verze (my old company still does). I go through ~5 - 10 cases a year.
Here’s a quote from Jeb Dunnuck:
“a rounded, supple, soft, beautifully textured white offering nicely integrated acidity, terrific balance, and outstanding length.” 90 points. $18 - 22. Is this overrated?
Another Wine Advocate quote:
“…pure and understated, unfurling in the glass with notes of red plum preserve, rose petals, incense and a discreet framing of new oak. Full-bodied, suave and ample, it’s soft and supple, with a sweet core of fruit, melting tannins and a polished, seamless profile, concluding with a sapid finish”. 96 points. $25,000. 2022 Romanee-Conti. Is this overrated?
Napa Valley produces ~60,000,000 bottles from ~42,000 acres. I go through ~1 case a year (2002 Montelena Cabernet was wonderful a few weeks ago).
I had to dig to find an appropriate wine, I remember being served this by friends a year ago.
A Wine Advocate quote: "notes of struck flint, smoky overtones and grassy-herbal elements, but also ripe fig and melon flavors’. 91 points. $30. 2020 Stag’s Leap Sauvignon Blanc. Is this overrated?
Another Wine Advocate quote:
“extraordinary purity of crème de cassis fruit… seamlessly constructed, full-bodied, and has a long finish with silky tannins.” Rated 97 points. $3000. 2014 Dreaming Beagle. Is this overrated?
My too-lengthy point is that it is somewhat absurd to generalize about regions that each produce tens of thousands of different wines, in total quantities that are hard to grasp.
IMO most red Burgundy and Napa Cabernet are overpriced.
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I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with this! I thought the original claim was that producers thought Pinot and Chard were the best grapes for their sites. The reason people (or at least I) disagreed with you was exactly that there is enough (1) economic reality and or (2) crass commercialism at play that it isn’t really true that every Pinot/chard vineyard in Willamette is there because the vineyard owner believes in her heart it is the right grape for that patch of dirt.
Of course this is true of every new world wine region to some extent!
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I do think you have to be a fan of whole cluster which is an acquired taste. Goodfellow would never apologize to not making a more “elegant” wine. You might also know that these have been successful ringers in Burgundy tastings. I happen to like bitter things such as black coffee and 90% cocoa dark chocolate. I also am not always in the mood for whole cluster PN. Now Kelley Fox’s wines - I could drink those every night.
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I think the bitter thing mellows significantly over time. I dont enjoy that particular sensation young, but some wines that show that element often end up as something I enjoy after 10, 15, 20 years.
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I agree with you completely. I think Goodfellow Pinots need a minimum of ten years. The 2010s are in a great spot now. I am not ready to touch my 2013 Heritage #2 or any 2015s.
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Sounds good. I should seek out an older bottle of Goodfellow. Maybe I’ll appreciate it more. Obviously would require confirmation from self proclaimed god tier taster David Bueker before confirming if a wine is good.
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Darn right you would!
Some people are exceptionally sensitive to bitter. My wife is one of them. Sorry you’re cursed.
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I believe the Goodfellow label began in 2012 or 2013. Prior to that, he bottled as Matello.
IIRC Bordeaux turns out more wine than all of California. At least as of about 10 years ago.
Great questions, and to be candid and redundant, it is tough business and cash flow is a big deal whether you are self funded, bank financed, or invested in. It isn’t a mystery why some last a short while and a few for a generation or two. It’s capital intensive with tiny moments of relief.
Lots of folks around the country and here at home enjoy under $40 world class chardonnay and pinot noir (undervalued maybe even) from the Willamette Valley, see that it is still accessible to some degree and dive in. I wouldn’t necessarily equate that with monetary ambition as some desire to be a part of the tapestry in an amazing growing region. It sucks that it doesn’t work out long term for many who really gut it out, but it is testament to the interest those folks have to be here and my hat is off to them. I have a lot more gratitude for those who are here and truly dig in compared with those who come for crush and bottling vacations. The problem is this isn’t a great place to hit the bunny slopes before the moguls when your only fundamentals are the snowplow.
If I were to pick a white and red variety for the Willamette Valley, hands down chardonnay and pinot noir for me. Does it grow to perfection on every site, absolutely not. But is it our communication lines to most Oregon wine drinkers around the world and winemakers here at home, surely. We are collectively gathering a catalog of understanding in how these perform in our terroirs and ways to share that info. When they are on, I believe they compete with the best in the world. That all feels reason enough to keep these at the helm in the Northern Willamette Valley.
There are plenty of wineries in the W.V. claiming the first to do this, the only to do that and on… It’s a trope, and none of these will change the through line and often times it feels disingenuous as some ride the coattails of our founding troupe of pinot noir growers in the W.V. while they wax on about the next great variety - that no one else has thought about -. There is plenty of room for different varieties, and some sites screaming for them and wineries who focus on the zag.
I know of growers looking to graft or plant other varieties or clones as grape sales decline currently as competition opens up for some of the better regarded vineyards in the area. This feels like a normal pivot/retraction to market demands. Some vineyards will get ripped out too or farmed minimally but I don’t think it is the wrong variety at fault. There is simply more wine to go around to fill less glasses for now.
So future customers will get to see possibly delicious wines from different varieties/clones from these adjustments, while future W.V. growers/prospectors will be eyeing what makes those sought after top shelf pinot noir and chardonnay vineyards so special and will hopefully plan their move to the valley around such notions and a willingness to stay for awhile. Or perhaps they go full in on Grüner or something of the sort. My money is on the former.
Also, back on topic, I had two underrated Chiantis tonight. I posted them on recently opened thread. Delicious.
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Some good points here about not romanticizing the history of planting grapes in Europe. We know all about the government edicts, power politics, business decisions and variety mutations that occurred as developed.
But, for all the benefits of experimentation, it would be a shame if the newer wine regions ripped up the vines every few decades in response to shifting consumer trends. We would never get old vines!
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Whatever I am drinking that I don’t think is all that good. Last night it was a tepid CdP and a Brunello. It is hard to ignore the QPR in any conversation regarding ratings.
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That’s no longer true. France produces ~8 billion bottles a year. California ~3 billion. That’s ~75% of US wine production and 4 times as much as Bordeaux. France produces about twice as much wine as the U.S.
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To me a big part of being overrated is the degree marketing induces blind acceptance of “truths”. Napa has marketed itself as the great Cab region of California. There are plenty of great sites there and plenty of world-class wines, but there are quite a few California regions that produce world-class Cabs.
A product of the marketing that makes a region overrated is a narrow focus on what’s being marketed. The “truth” needs to be simple. In Napa, that’s Cab. Basically, when better performing varieties are ripped out to plant the en vogue variety, that’s a product of marketing. When there’s a rush of over-planting the brand-name variety in ill-suited sites, that’s because of marketing.
I think the Willamette Valley had its period of being highly overrated is past. I remember when Germanic whites were the thing. That’s what the locals were drinking. Stores there had better selections of German and Alsatian imports than in California, as well. I do remember the attempt at pushing Pinot Gris that came a bit later. The first two Oregon Pinot Gris I had are still the two worst two bottles of that variety I’ve ever had. (I’d assume anyone making them now knows what they’re doing.) When Pinot surged it was front-loaded with expensive critic darlings that cost $80 when you could get Williams-Selyem, Hirsch, Mount Eden and the like for $35. Their local media was calling them as good as Burgundy and much better than California. Poll the average Oregonian now and they’ll generally believe that’s the truth. Funny that 20+ years later the high-end is mostly the same price, with some maybe 50% higher. But, the quality is broadly up. There are a bunch of high quality reasonably priced producers, like ones we talk about on this forum. There are hipster producers. There are wine geek producers. They are finding their niches or adding interest to their tasting rooms. Fighting the good fight against groupthink.
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We don’t really need to do this, but as a conversation exercise, it would have made sense to ask this approximate question in some more focused ways:
-
most overrated region on Wine Berserkers
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most overrated region by major wine critics
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most overrated wine region by the broader world of customers of premium wine
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most overpriced wine region
Those would still be almost entirely subjective and there would thus be a wide assortment of answers, but I think the conversations would make more sense?
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Totally agree.
An almost completely meaningless topic that seems designed to get people to snipe at each other.
Also, given total lack of engagement I don’t get the sense that original poster actually cares about the topic either!
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Despite it being my favorite for reds for 20 years and I don’t think it is grossly out of whack, I’m going to say Piedmont Nebbiolo. Two main reasons: One is that I see people chasing the wines at almost every level now even if they really aren’t familiar with them. People buying up older wines at auction for over $100 and dismissing them as dead when they’re still pretty young. Of course they could be compromised bottles but I have seen or known some examples that were really good and dismissed as too old when they had more than 10 good years ahead. We all start somewhere low on the pole and learning by experience is usually the best method, but I am often shocked at what I see. The second is price escalation seems to have outpaced other regions. I migrated to Piedmont when I realized that I could drink at a higher level than Burgundy or even N Rhone for considerably less money. (They’re all pretty top tier in terms of what I like and understand that they’re not equally appealing to all). I think that still holds but most Barolo/Barbaresco is now pushing a minimum of $75+. There are still some good exceptions closer to $50 but not too many years ago there was a lot between maybe $35-50 outside of the top names. Now people are looking to northern Piedmont or Roero to keep prices down but while they can offer fine drinking, Roero especially, they’re just not the same. I don’t think the leap in Barolo prices is all that dramatic vs most other top Euro regions over this period yet does seem to have outpaced most or all. Even though I don’t drink much BDX today, I imagine one can do pretty well there now for $35-60. Still a lot in Tuscany for under $60. Ditto Rioja.
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What a difficult region to dive into. I’ve been to plenty of dinners with wealthy Silicon Valley newish collectors bringing pricey Barolo and Barbaresco. I might be more interested in who the great contemporary producers are if I were a lot younger. These people open way too young 15 year old bottles of clearly great wines, and I’m not hearing oohs and ahhs from anyone. Then there are wines from the bumbling producers trying to fight what Neb is about, late picked, oak dominant. Yuck! A friend has stuck 5 year old Barolo in our double-blind tastings a couple times that were quite oxidative. Not a good sign when your guess is being 30 years older than it actually is, and not in a good way. Maybe that’s from a bad attempt to mitigate the tannin? Anyway, I have my feelings amd enough experience about what Nebbiolo can be from various regions. I don’t see a great correlation with critic ratings, or really, feel there’s a lot of not great in the mix of highly rated. Don’t really know if there are under-rated producers. I’ll stick with my 6 decades of maturity Barolo and the younger drinking Nebs I discover, and the incidental other stuff other people bring.
You mention a phenomenon I see on CT with many age-worthy wines. People so used to bold, young-drinking wines, that that’s their basis for judging wine. With no experience with (good) older wines, they view fruit that’s beginning to fade as “over the hill”. The same with wines that are shut down. “It’s not drinking well now, so, um, drink up!”
A big part of why this forum exists is highly rated wines that didn’t age as predicted by a certain critic, and the resultant aggressive censorship and personal attacks to try to protect his brand image as the ultimate palate, infallibly objective. We had a whole wave of producers who pandered their winemaking to his palate weaknesses. You could have argued Spanish and Australian wines were overrated when that was going on. And when those pretender producers’ wines failed to age well according to the palates of the people who collected them, the proof was there. Note that I use “pretender” to note that there were masters of riper wines that did age well. I think Barolo is in that boat now, getting attention for being the great wine region it is, but having a lot of critics in the mix giving bad advice.
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Greece