What’s going on with Napa? Questions and concerns

[Ian_Dorin]

You didn’t name a single wine that any one would have qualified as a “big wine”, especially the wines of Bandol.

You just have an extremely different context of what big means than pretty much any one I’ve ever come across.

[Eric_White]

@Jeff_Leve

from the 1850s to today

wow, you’re a LOT older than I thought!

[Martin_Steinley]

@Jeff_Leve

Yes, of course, I do that as well. That’s where a good portion of the tasting notes for the older, special bottles come from. I also add notes from single bottles with dinner at home.

I have almost 30,000 notes on the site from the 1850s to today.

Do you distinguish those tasting notes from those without food, friends and music banging in the background? Are they as accurate/reliable?

[Martin_Steinley]

@Ian_Dorin

You didn’t name a single wine that any one would have qualified as a “big wine”, especially the wines of Bandol.

You just have an extremely different context of what big means than pretty much any one I’ve ever come across.

Anyone? You may exaggerate a bit. However, I understand thet to many big means overripe and alcoholic. They needn’t be that way.

[David_Baum]

@Martin_Steinley

@Martin_Steinley

No, not big; rather, too ripe, oaky and alcoholic to be enjoyed. There are big wines which are not that way.

@Tyler_F

@David_Baum

Thx but I think we are awaiting Martin’s list of powerful cabs that he doesn’t think are ripe and oaky. Specific wines hopefully

He promised it last year and we still haven’t seen a list. Can you believe it?

David, my comment was that here are big wines which are not too ripe, oaky and alcoholic. I did not have Cabernet Sauvignon in mind when I made it. Tyler, I made no promise regarding a list, although it might make for an interesting thread. However, the wines that I had in mind were the likes of Allemand, Clape, Gilles Cornas; Levet Cote-Rotie; Pradeaux, Tempier, Terrebrune Bandol; Trevallon; some Languedoc Mourvedre-dominant wines such as Barral Faugeres Valiniere; Barolo from the Serralunga Valley; and even some Burgundies, particularly with the warming conditions. For example, the 2018 Joseph Voillot Pommard Rugiens is a fairly big wine, but it is not excessively ripe, oaky or alcoholic. Just now, to see if others had a similar impression of the wine, I checked CellarTracker and found this note: “Youthfully exhuberant, on nose and palate, deep, dark, robust, concentrated in a hyper-feminine way, red fruits, floral perfumes, sandalwood spice, lipstick, mineralite and some cool, coniferous forest floor. So concentrated yet weightless, tannins seemingly absent …” There are many, many more, of course.

Could it be you don’t like or regularly drink cabernet?

How long have you been drinking fine wines (ie about how old are you)?

Curious about those

[Martin_Steinley]

I like Cabernet Sauvignon quite a lot. I began with Calfironia Cabernet Sauvignon and Bordeaux about 35 years ago and since then have tasted, drunk, collected and sold wine extensively for about 35 years. I have 20K bottles in my warehouse at any given time, so I get a good look at a fair bit of wine.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Martin_Steinley

@Jeff_Leve

Yes, of course, I do that as well. That’s where a good portion of the tasting notes for the older, special bottles come from. I also add notes from single bottles with dinner at home.

I have almost 30,000 notes on the site from the 1850s to today.

Do you distinguish those tasting notes from those without food, friends and music banging in the background? Are they as accurate/reliable?

No, I do not differentiate. It’s not relevant in my world. It’s the wine in the glass that matters.

That being said, I do 3 large tastings a year. Bordeaux barrel tastings, 2023 coming in April. Bordeaux recent bottled vintage, 2021 coming in March and recent Chateauneuf du Pape, 2022 probably this coming December.

I also do a more limited N Rhône, most recent vintage report.

As to your second question, all my notes are hopefully accurate and they are 100 % accountable.

Taste the same wine and compare it with my notes. That is all you need to do to see if we agree or not, and if I called the wine in a way that you were comfortable with.

[Alan_Rath]

Allemand and Clape aren’t big wines? Young Tempier is definitely a big wine in my book.

[JMReuter]

Originally, I was just trying to suggest that context matters: A wine that tastes big and oaky in the context of a wine dinner with lots of non-Cabernet options might not in the context of a tasting of Cabernet. I can understand why someone ITB would naturally evaluate wines in the narrower like-versus-like context but that’s not how I encounter them over dinner.

None of this is to say I wouldn’t enjoy the 2014 Macdonald served blind over dinner.

[Jeff_Leve]

@JMReuter

Originally, I was just trying to suggest that context matters.

Context doesn’t matter. It is not relevant because you cannot repeat the context. But you can repeat the same wine in your glass as the taster.

[Ian_Dorin]

Bringing Burgundy and Bandol into a conversation about “big wines” is like bringing a tooth pick to a knife fight. Mourvèdre by nature is a low acid, low tanning varietal. It thrives in Bandol because of the minerality in the soil. FWIW, I think the Voillot wines aren’t very good, but that’s a whole other argument. They are certainly juicier wines, but I would find it wild if any of the Napa drinkers on the his thread would enjoy the Voillot wines very much (they can be astringent too).

Cornas isn’t even as rich as the wines of Hermitage or Cote Rotie, and Levet makes a lighter style of Cote Rotie (I should know, I own a bunch).

Not that price is everything, but when comparing these wines to the true cult Cabernets, all of these wines are at hundreds of dollars less per bottle too.

[Ian_Dorin]

In what context? The context of this thread? The context of those wines versus Cabernet?

I don’t even think Allemand and Clape are big in the context of Northern Rhone (when you have producers like Guigal and Chapoutier who make wines up and down the river).

So no, I don’t.

And I totally disagree about Tempier at any age. I drink it all the time. I open it when I want something bigger than a Burgundy, but won’t hit me over the head.

[Martin_Steinley]

@Ian_Dorin

I don’t even think Allemand and Clape are big in the context of Northern Rhone (when you have producers like Guigal and Chapoutier who make wines up and down the river).

Both Guigal and Chapoutier are overripe, oaky and alcoholic. Those are not requirements for a “big” wine. And price has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

[Martin_Steinley]

@Ian_Dorin

And I totally disagree about Tempier at any age. I drink it all the time. I open it when I want something bigger than a Burgundy, but won’t hit me over the head.

Precisely, I am talking about big wines that don’t hit one over the head.

[David_Baum]

Ok that adds some context. How about some big cabs you do like?

[Ian_Dorin]

Funny, I knew you would say that. The wines are 13-13.5% alcohol. La Landonne and La Mouline are incredible wines. (La Turque is hit and miss for me). Chapoutier also led the charge that is so “en vogue” in the Northern Rhone of being biodynamic as well.

I would beg to differ, the original post was about Cult Cabernet, and they are pricey wines. Not about wines from Bandol, Cornas or Yugoslavia.

[Ian_Dorin]

I’m not sure how to square that.

I read that as- wines that are slightly bigger than lighter wines.

Alex MacDonald texted me a little while ago and said he’s enjoying the thread.

[Alan_Rath]

“Big” is in the eye of the beholder, no doubt. I cannot drink most SQN wines, they are overly “big” for me. It’s like adjusting the greyscale on a black and white photo. Once you exceed some threshold, it’s all 255 white Same for wine, once you exceed some personal threshold, it’s all the same.

I’m not exactly on the same page as Martin for everything (notably, I find a place for McDonald, near the upper end of my “big” palate). Nor do I agree with him on Ridge, though I can see where some of its character would stick out, particularly when young.

[Ian_Dorin]

I do not disagree at anything you said until that last part.

I get that people have an upper limit. I do as well, and yes SQN is probably past my limit too (though in transparency, I have not had a lot of SQN in the last few years, probably 5-6 times max), but in a discussion about Napa Cabernet, and specifically cult Cabernet, the upper limit for folks is probably a lot higher than yours (and frankly, mine too!)

[Martin_Steinley]

It’s not hard to square. You think that a big wine needs to hit you over the head, and I don’t.

I infer that Alex MacDonald makes or is somehow responsible for the Mac\Donald wines, so for him I will say that I am pleased to know that he is enjoying the thread, and that for me, by your definition, his wine is a big wine.