What prevents an area from producing great grapes?

WINE TALK
1

I have been thinking about this question for a while as it seems to come up often that this area or that area will never be a great region but without citing reasons. When talking about great regions or vineyards it often seems like things are contradictory such as warm days and cool nights are best yet in CdP the rocky vineyards retain the warmth of the day and radiate it back at night. Same issues when it comes to soils; clay, chalk, limestone, sand, and schist and probably more are often cited as making great wine.

The only factor that I can say for sure that matters is winter low temps where vinifera can’t expect to survive every year. What else is universally accepted as a limitation in growing grapes for great wine?

2

All I know of is the globe map with 30 degree (?) bands running east&west but measuring north&South (latitude) that illustrate what regions north and south of the equator are capable of growing grapes…but there are exceptions then, too.

Great question!
Hopefully someone who knows what they’re talking about can pitch in???

3

Disease - mold, mildew, bacteria, viruses.

Predators, such as insects, and of course deer! [Apparently “Les Clos” in Burgundy refers to the stone walls (enclosing the vineyards) which were built to keep the wandering livestock from eating the vines.]

The Phylloxera moths and their larvae almost drove the entire Vitis vinifera species [or “race” within a species] into extinction.

And if Pierce’s-Disease-infected leaf hoppers ever get a foothold in Europe, then it will be Phylloxera all over again.

4

Just the bird netting alone [to keep the birds from eating the post-veraison ripening grapes] is insanely expensive.

And if something like whitetail deer were ever to wander into Napa or Sonoma, and if the environmentalistic insanity emanating out of San Francisco were to prevent the grape farmers from retaliating with fully automatic machine guns mounted on helicopters, then every one of those vineyards would require a deer fence [like yesterday], which might very well drive many vineyard owners into bankruptcy.

And then of course the environmentalistically insane would clog up the entire governmentalistic “permit” and “zoning” process for getting the “approval” necessary for even breaking ground on a deer fence.

5

Hot hot heat.

6

Constant wildfires

7

Excessive water retention of the soil or excessive water availability (such as a high water table). Excessive soil nutrients.

Some of those things you cite vary because what’s ideal for one grape variety can be far from ideal for another. In some sites people have discovered grapes that excel. Other sites that have great potential have yet to be optimized (or even explored). Other sites just plain suck, or are limited. people have found sites in the Lodi region that excel for some Iberian grapes, for example, but would suck for the popular French grapes.

8

There are great wines produced in areas where all of these exist.

9

Not having a cooling influence during the growing season; not having well-drained soil

10

Grapes are a temperate-climate fruit, so you have to approximate something that is somewhat similar to where they originated. Just like you probably wouldn’t grow lemons in Minnesota, you wouldn’t grow grapes at sea level in say, Ecuador, the Sahara, or in the Arctic.

You need adequate water, but not so much you have a swamp, and you need a certain number of hours of sunlight to get the fruit from flowering to ripeness, and you need temperatures above 50F for a sustained period so the vines can flower and produce grapes and ripen them. In Europe, grapes grow around a band at 45 degrees latitude and they seem to do pretty well. In Mendoza, they’re too close to the equator, so people go up into the mountains to simulate the same environment and temperatures.

So what prevents an area from producing great wine is that the area doesn’t have the requisite sunlight and temperatures distributed over the correct amount of time with the right amount of water.

Secondarily, you have to worry about things like Pierce’s disease. Birds and deer have been around for centuries and people have figured out how to deal with them so I don’t think they’re critical issues.

Same with soil. Grapes seem to grow in many types of soils, you just have to figure out how to work with what you have.

11

Your second paragraph is what I am getting at. When a region is dismissed as never going to be able to achieve greatness I often wonder why especially if it’s a new world site that hasn’t been explored for anything other than What was originally planted.

Regarding water retention/availability is because of excessive vigor or vine health? If to manage vigor, I wonder if that will always be the case. Lots of interest here on the east coast with higher density planting on new 101-14 or Riparia rootstocks that seem to gaining traction and I read some research recently from Tony Wolf on the use of root bags.

12

Agreed and with both sunlight and temperature that distribution can be fairly wide if looking at the differences between the Mosel and Napa or any other region. So except for the obvious outlier conditions it seems to be more of a matching of numerous factors together than it is ruling an area out based on the nighttime low temperature, humidity, or soils type all of which I have been told will never allow the East Coast to produce great wine. Maybe together that is true but as individual factors I don’t think it is the case.

13

I think that’s right. It’s the matching of numerous factors. Plus when you talk about vigor, remember that you’re talking about the rootstock as much as the scion. So you have the additional capability of selecting a rootstock that likes your particular conditions.

As far as dismissing entire areas, you can’t raise a grape in two weeks, so Alaska is probably out for the most part. but as you point out, not all grapes require the same amount of sun distributed over the same time periods. Some grapes ripen early, so you can avoid late season frosts if that’s an issue, an some ripen later so you can take advantage of the longer season if that’s your situation.

Nighttime lows are interesting. In some cases, they help slow the grape’s production of sugars. The grape is still working, but it’s making things like acids and sugars at different rates so if that’s an issue in your area, you might want nighttime lows. OTOH, that may be less of an issue elsewhere.

Here’s a link to a pretty interesting study they did in Australia using Shiraz. It’s a paid site but the abstract is free. It discusses the temperature effects on malates pre and post veraison, as well as night and day. I thought this was interesing:

Elevating maximum temperatures (4–10 °C above controls) during pre-véraison stages led to higher malate content, particularly with warmer nights. Heating at véraison and ripening stages reduced malate content, consistent with effects typically seen in warm vintages. However, when minimum temperatures were also raised by 4–6 °C, malate content was not reduced, suggesting that the regulation of malate metabolism differs during the day and night.

Same with the rocks, etc. I think when people make a good wine they look at their circumstances and suggest those are the things that matter. But that’s partly because a lot of wine has been made in Europe and there wasn’t a lot of science behind it. They had access to limited grape varieties and out of their limited selection, found something that worked in the growing area near their village.

Today it’s a little more interesting because people can draw on those centuries of experience. I think I’ve posted this before but there was a guy who was looking for land that approximated the temperatures and sunlight of Burgundy. Mountains in CA were too expensive, as was land in WA, so he settled on Michigan of all places. He studied the soils, exposures, temperature ranges over the years, and decided he could make pretty good wine in Michigan of all places. Having grown up there, I would have been the first to disparage the state as a winemaking state. But I tasted his wine without knowing anything about it and it was really good. It’s Wyncroft if you’re interested. Further north in the state they’re making good Riesling.

I have a friend in Hungary who planted Sagrantino because he thinks his mountainside is a place where it will do well. And of course, Charles Massoud is making good Chenin Blanc on out in Long Island. Given that today we can draw on the collective wisdom of the entire wine-making world rather than being limited to the local monks and peasants, I think it’s foolish to dismiss regions out of hand unless as mentioned, they lack the requirements to physically ripen the fruit.

That said, grapes did come from dry climates, so on the humid east coast and in the south, you might end up needing to spray for molds and mildews more than you would in a drier place.

14

Less than stellar reviews . . . :slight_smile:

15

Where are they making “great wines” in the presence of Pierce’s-infected leafhoppers?

And where are they making “great wines” in the presence of whitetail deer [or similar predators] without fencing?

16

Robert Parker liking the wine?

17

And where are they making “great wines” in the presence of whitetail deer [or similar predators] without fencing?

But if they put up fencing, why can’t a region produce great wine? They have deer in New York and various places in California. They have birds and other animals that will eat your grapes in many places in South Africa, Australia, Europe, and elsewhere. So people put up nets.

Whether or not you think the wines are “great” is a different matter.

18

Deer and other predators are harder to understand than just if there in the area they must be a threat. I have been growing for 10 years now with no fence and many deer in the area. I have chased them out of my yard back into the trees on numerous occasions and once watched a group of eight move through my yard to get to the wooded area behind me. I have lost Hostas, Lilies, and Echinacea to deer and they have even eaten the roses that are planted at the end of the rows, yet the only deer damage my vines have sustained is that they ate the tops of my zinfandel vines when they were on their first leaf setting them back a year. They have never eaten the fruit and I know that they have been in the rows as they have left proof that they were there. On the other hand, I have strong pressure from birds and yellow jackets and lost my entire 2013 crop to squirrels.

Another grower that is a few miles away and grows different grapes has not had much bird or squirrel problem but has a real issue with deer.

I can’t explain it and I keep being told that my day will come but so far the deer in my area have shown no interest in the vines or the fruit.

BTW, I am not saying that I am making great wine, just that its harder to understand the predators than many people think.

19

Grit. True grit and determination. Slackers need not apply.

20

Living in Missouri, historically a major wine-producer, I have often wondered what kept great wine from being made here. I’ve encountered zero great wines, or even very good wines, from Missouri. I have been told that two big problems here are 1) springtime temperature fluctuations, particularly that vinifera vines bud early when the weather warms then are very susceptible to the freezes and frosts that inevitably follow. This is a problem for a lot of fruits too. Even in Southern Missouri, many fruits grow much better than in the northern part of the state; and 2) unrelenting heat in July and August. The heat can be absolutely brutal in July and August, and because of high humidity and no maritime influence there is no cooling relief at night to help maintain acidity.

I know little about grape-growing, these are just things that have been suggested to me when I’ve discussed it with various farmers in the region. I find this subject quite interesting though.