What do you think about Ponsot?

WINE TALK
21

I’ve recently had a couple bottles of 04 CdlR from Ponsot - one was undrinkable and the other progressing nicely. Lots of talk on the board about the 04 green in this wine so I guess I’m 1 for 2 on that. The 85 is one of the prettier wines I have had, and I started with a case and have a few left. I’m sitting on some 05 and 06 so I hope for the best with these - BH gives them both nice reviews. The 05 is one of his highest ratings and the 06 was also given some nice comments by Allen.

22

Not at all. These 86s are now ravishingly complete. I’ve asserted before and will assert again that in my experience the fact that a red Burgundy shows no promise for the future whatever analytically is no actual indicator of its future. If this makes me seem an idiot then I will just have to live with that.

23

I think some of us are stand-offish because of some of the recent vintages.

Some of the greatest Burgs I’ve had have been Ponsot CdlR: '72, '80, '85 and '93. And the '91 Clos St. Denis. Truly great wines.

But there have been variable reports on the '95 and '96, and I’ve had a couple really weird bottles of the '04 despite positive press.

Also, because they can be so great, the press raves about them in positive years, so the '05 CdlR goes for $1000 when the '02 was around $100 (which I of course bought).

So the American market is pretty idiosyncratic, likely reflecting American buyers. Some real hesitation given recent variation, but when Burghound really raves (e.g., the super high rating for the '05), the market goes crazy.

But when those wines hit the highs for me like '72, '80, '85, '91, and '93 (haven’t had the pleasure of some of the other great vintages), they’re really among the very best Burgs around.

Cheers,
-Robert

24

Just realized that there is no antecedent to the “'86s”, but…I do remember visiting and tasting the '86s and '87s in 1988 with Laurent’s father and thinking that they were among the worst of those vintages, which I tasted quite a bit on that trip (the first in real earnest, though the third visit to the region we had). Laurent’s father was cold and somber and the wines showed that way, too. Laurent, who I think was estranged from him and vice versa, has done a nice job on the promotion end…and is very active in the Chevaliers du Tastevin and cultivates those types…With the prices and the experiences from the '80s…I have no experience to speak. And, no regrets, as his promotion has created a trophy cult around his wines. If that’s his goal, he’s succeeded. He was faked by that guy “Rudy K” who charmed and dined the auctioneers and winewriters a few years back. So, that indicates something.

When wines get into trophy pricing…I say “why”? Not that I could afford them, but if I could, I wouldn’t buy them anyway. There are plenty of Clos de Roche wines (the Ligniers, Truchot, Rousseau to name a few) that aren’t break the bank and are really good. Is Ponsot really worth triple the cost for some reason? If so…what is that reason…to those here who seem to be fans of the wines (and of Laurent, which is apparently easy to do). Serious question.

25

There seems to be some misperception about Ponsot’s pricing. His CDLR from domestic distribution should be around $250 or so. No more expensive than other wines in it’s class. The high prices charged on the 05 and 09 (I assume) are purely the invention of the retailers.

26

Ok since we’re talking Ponsot, what are the feelings on the 93 or 91 CDLR. I’m going to Bern’s later this month and I know they had some on their list last year. I’ve been thinking about it for two years.

27

Nick - had the 93 CDLR in april of this year. It was wonderful and very complete. “1993 Ponsot CDLR: Lovely mature perfumed nose. Elegant silky balanced delicate, great red fruits. Wonderful and drinking beautifully.”

I have had the 2001 CLDR this as year as well, Loveyl elegance and purity but very young.

Brodie

28

I find it interesting that certain vintages of Ponsot based on a great score (05,09) have exploded in price like other blue-chip producers in same vintage. However other vintages are much closer to the pricing you mention, sometimes even lower, on sale.
I find the pricing curious, as I can’t think of another producer where people are willing to pay such a premium for a particularly high-scoring wine.
It’s almost as if the marketplace is shy or cool on Ponsot wines, unless BH gives it a super-high score then it turns into a must-have-at-any-price wine.

29

Mugnier.
alan

30

I think that’s the point…“wines in “it’s” class”…when there are many great/excellent CDLR’s that are “in its class” and priced a lot lower…“it’s” class=the trophy producers?

I don’t know Ponsot’s version, but can’t imagine it’s significantly better than the Ligniers’ versions, the Truchot or Rousseau version…as they are terrific.

31

To Mugnier, I’d add Roumier and perhaps Fourrier, Bachelet, Rousseau and Dujac. Look at the prices for “typical vintages” and look at 05 and 09–double or triple.

32

Within the past couple of months I’ve had the 93 and 98 Griotte…The 93 was quite nice but needs more time. Unfortunately, the 98 was corked.

33

Umm, Stuart, you might wanna try throwing one of your bottles of Truchot Clos de la Roche on an auction site - I think you’ll re-assess your pricing comment…

34

LOL, yes those old bottles of CSD can be "other"worldly, so to speak. [snort.gif]

35

Stuart, you seem to be blaming Laurent Ponsot for being successful. Is there something personal you have against the man? Prices in secondary markets can get pretty ugly for a lot of top wines, but it’s hard to blame that on the vigneron IMO. Do you blame Rousseau for their outrageous prices for top vintages in secondary markets?

I quit buying Ponsot after the 2002 vintage, due to high prices and inconsistent quality, but I have a very favorable reaction to his efforts to combat fake wines. I’ve never met him, but clearly the man marchs to the beat of his own drummer. I think he is a fine ambassador for his region.

36

Not at all, Lew. (In fact, he is a close friend of a very close friend…and has stayed with him in FL three times for lengthy periods.) I’m sure he is a good guy, etc…

I try to separate wines and mystique and marketing. The pricing and expectations can get pretty blurred with that combo. I also separate initial pricing and secondary markets for older wines.

I have almost always de-valued the mystique and the marketing in forming my views on particular producers. I know the market and many people don’t. That isn’t something I criticize in others, though the personalities add almost nothing to the value of a wine-- for me, especially where the personalities cultivate a mystique.

And, my experiences early on with the estate left me uninterested…and the pricing was extra-premium before Laurent became a self-appointed “ambassador”.

37

Staurt…very well said. [thumbs-up.gif] Secondary markets are hunting grounds for collectors…



…de-valued the mystique…

[worship.gif] … [dance-clap.gif]

38

Or, better yet, just sell it to me directly at the “not breaking the bank” price that you had in mind…

39

Thanks Brodie.

Stuart, Truchot and Lignier currently trade for more than Ponsot in premium vintages. You are the only person I’ve ever seen refer to Rousseau’s CDLR as on a par with the other 3.

Alan, I know you were referencing Peter’s comment but I do believe that the high’s and lows for Ponsot pricing are greater than the other producers you mention. But again it should be pointed out that the price variance in 05 was from the retailers for those you mentioned.

40

Nick, I don’t think I said Rousseau was “on par” with the Hubert Lignier version. (I think Georges Lignier makes a fine example, too.) I do think if it had some new oak treatment the Rousseau would be regarded as a really good example of Clos de la Roche. Truchot is a more complicated issue. Truchot’s wines are well regarded for what they aren’t: souped up or manipulated. Not sure it’s really any better than Rousseau’s…and not even the Truchot top wine. But, that’s academic now. Can’t compare the Rousseau to Ponsot…no recent experience.

Would love to do a blind tasting with them all someday-- of say those with 10 years age. I’ll supply the Rousseau.