Weirdo and oddball grapes

[Otto_Forsberg]

@J_a_y_H_a_c_k

So Otto - How about Ocelot? There are three bottles in Cellartracker, one of which is mine, one of which is owned by someone in Brescia, Italy and the third one is owned by someone who appears to own even weirder wines than I do.

That’s definitely very obscure, since not only does Wine Grapes have no mentions of the variety, but neither does VIVC, which basically has an entry for every single grape variety imaginable.

What confuses me, though, is how the website of Scolaris names the wine as “Oĉelot (Malbec Alta Collection)”. I know they used to farm Malbec in Friuli in the past, so this makes me wonder whether Oĉelot is a unique variety or just a very obscure synonym for Malbec.

@PaulSmith

My recollection is that it is a white grape and actually a cross between Merlot and Folle Blanche. Just a layperson, so maybe someone more knowledgeable has more detail.

Indeed, Merlot Blanc is a rare white variety. A Merlot x Folle cross, as you said.

@J_Dornellas

Caberlot? Is anyone making it besides Il Carnasciale?

They claim to be the only producer of Caberlot, so possibly not. I don’t know whether any original vines, from which the Carnasciale plantings were taken, survives, or if there have been other cuttings than those of Il Carnasciale.

However, since they have not allowed the variety to be genetically tested, it still remains unknown whether Caberlot is truly a unique variety (often claimed to be a Cabernet Franc x Merlot cross or a cross of Merlot and an unknown variety) or just a clone of Merlot or Cabernet Franc.

@brigcampbell

Outside of Italy, and specifically Tuscany, not so much.

You made just a general search. Almost all of these were just red blends with the term “Caberlot” in their name. If you search only for the variety, that single Albanian bottle is the only one that isn’t Il Carnasciale.

@Cris_Whetstone

Cab Pfeffer may be a grape Otto has tried twice. It is actually Mourtaou from Southwest France. Like Petit Sirah is to Durif, Cab Pfeffer might have more in plantings now in the New World than the Old World.

To my understanding, there are Cab Pfeffers that have been identified as Mourtaou, and others that are not. I have no idea to which group the wine I tasted belongs to. However, I’ve never had a Mourtaou.

@Thomas_Keim

And I am a late comer to the wines of Georgia - so discovering grapes like ‘Tsitska’ is just mind blowing -

While the Tsitska wines have been always nice, I haven’t thought it was anything particularly distinctive. I’m more partial to Kisi, but some people think its somewhat floral-spicy overall character can get a bit overwhelming. Mtsvane is another somewhat more characterful variety.

But as an overall observation: I think varieties that are just not available at the local market don’t really qualify as “weirdo or oddball grapes”. If that were the case, I could argue varieties like Zinfandel or Chenin Blanc would be weirdo or oddball varieties because at some point there were just 1 or 0 examples available here in the Finnish market.

So while you might not have seen much Lagrein or Schiava or Marselan or Douce Noir or Seyval Blanc, I would argue they are far from oddball varieties. For example Lagrein and Schiava are some of the most widely-planted red varieties in Alto Adige and Schiava (aka. Trollinger) is probably the most popular red variety in the large wine region of Württemberg. Douce Noir used to be the most grown variety in Argentina (as Bonarda) and is also grown in California as Charbono. Seyval Blanc is one of the most popular hybrid varieties and there are thousands of acres of Marselan vineyards in France and there are hundreds of acres elsewhere: not only is the variety grown also in California, but I’ve also had examples from Spain, Argentina and even China.

However, to me, most other varieties mentioned here are pretty rare and obscure.

[Kirk.Grant]

Some grapes that come to mind are: Neuburger, Cococciola, Turbiana, & Albillo

[Otto_Forsberg]

@Kirk.Grant

Some grapes that come to mind are: Neuburger, Cococciola, Turbiana, & Albillo

IMO these are varieties that might not make it that often to the US market, but definitely are not weirdo or oddball, since at thousands of acres of planted vineyard they are pretty common, and I they’ve been pretty “normal” to me as well (except for Cococciola - never had a varietal wine).

Especially odd to see Turbiana there, because it’s just a synonym for Verdicchio grown in Lugana.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Some weirdo oddballs I’d include here are that Shoukoushi mentioned above, plus:

Completer - at just 3 ha extremely rare. Makes very distinctive, complex and ageworthy whites. Giani Boner’s Malanser Completer is one of the best Swiss wines I’ve tasted.

Fehér Gohér - a distinctive, fresh and floral-herby Hungarian white variety.

Garofanata - like Verdicchio, only with more power and concentration.

Kövérszőlő (“fat grape”) aka. Grasă de Cotnari - quite like a Gewurztraminer, only with more structure and acidity.

Maceratino - a rare Italian white variety producing wonderfully fragrant, characterful, somewhat exotic and quite distinctive wines. Pollenza makes a solid varietal wine.

Mondeuse Blanche - this rare white variety can make wines that are light and delicate like a Muscadet, yet capable of showing so much depth and nuance.

Morenillo - a lovely little red variety from Terra Alta, making wines that are somewhere between a Pinot Noir and a Gamay, but with a Spanish twist. Marañones makes a lovely expression of this cultivar in Madrid.

Uva del Tundè - an Italian red variety making rather herbaceous wines; at least the one I tasted was not unlike what I could imagine an Italian Chinon taste like!

Vidiano - in deft hands this rare Crete variety can make wonderfully fresh and complex whites.

Yiannoudi - a very rare but also perhaps the highest-quality indigenous red variety grown in Cyprus.

I tried to come up with varieties that were not listed just because nobody has heard of them, but also because they were also very rare (probably the total planted acreage of these varieties amounts to less than 100 acres) AND can make quite distinctive wines of high quality - same can not be said of many other rare or “rare” varieties. To me, it can be quite clear why some rare varieties have become so rare: it is simply impossible to make anything particularly interesting out of them!

[JohnMag]

A well-publicized rarity is Dorona di Venezia, used to make white Venissa. Apparently thought extinct until early 2000s.

[Kelby_James_Russell]

This has to be the first time in my Finger Lakes life that I’ve heard someone name check Seyval Blanc in such a positive manner

[Kelby_James_Russell]

@Otto_Forsberg

To me, it can be quite clear why some rare varieties have become so rare: it is simply impossible to make anything particularly interesting out of them!

This doesn’t get mentioned often, but is absolutely true. There are plenty of rare grapes that have phased out because they just aren’t that intriguing. Human assisted selection isn’t always reckless.

A couple of oddball grapes we’ve found and loved from Santorini:

• Katsano - Gavalas I think is the only producer of it, or certainly one of the very few. Orchard fruit and medium bodied white wine, we found the aromatics almost as pleasing as the drive and texture of the midpalate on the couple examples we tried.
• Mavrotragano - What an absolutely wild red grape; dense, animal, and tomato. This may be a grape that is rare because it is so wildly inconsistent in style from producer to producer, but we were fascinated by it nonetheless.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@Otto_Forsberg

@J_a_y_H_a_c_k

So Otto - How about Ocelot? There are three bottles in Cellartracker, one of which is mine, one of which is owned by someone in Brescia, Italy and the third one is owned by someone who appears to own even weirder wines than I do.

That’s definitely very obscure, since not only does Wine Grapes have no mentions of the variety, but neither does VIVC, which basically has an entry for every single grape variety imaginable.

What confuses me, though, is how the website of Scolaris names the wine as “Oĉelot (Malbec Alta Collection)”. I know they used to farm Malbec in Friuli in the past, so this makes me wonder whether Oĉelot is a unique variety or just a very obscure synonym for Malbec.

. . .

My wife and I had dinner at a restaurant in Venice and we asked the waiter about what wine to drink. He said that they had a wine made from a recently “recovered” grape that they thought had been lost, but had been brought bac from the dead by fining some vines in an undeveloped area near the Italy/Croatia border. He claimed that Scolaris was the only winery that grew the grape, which was enough for us to order a bottle with dinner, but he may have lacked facts and made up the story.

We liked the wine and since they were allowed to sell us unopened bottles to take with us we bought a bottle to bring home. It was in October 2017 and they had the 2003 to sell, so it now sits peacefully in our cellar near a few other weirdo bottles, like the Abbatucci Ministre Imperial and the Musar (not exactly obscure in present company). I am thinking of having a dinner for good wines made from obscure grapes. Perhaps I can use this thread as a starting point to make a list.

We had a Portuguese field blend that ALLEGEDLY had 57 different varieties at a Parker Matter of Taste event in New York. That probably represented a serious multiplier in the number of varieties I have tried. I, like you, have a goal of trying “one of each” before I’m done, but you are miles ahead of me so I need to pick up the pace!

And further to the discussion of Seyval Blanc in New York, my sister, who lived in the Finger Lakes at the time, gave me a bottle of 2010 Khmer Angkor Vineyard Seyval Blanc Apsara. The winery was owned by Cambodian expats. It was meh. However, it did raise the interesting question of what they might have called the winery if they had made red wine. They didn’t.

[Otto_Forsberg]

@Kelby_James_Russell

Katsano - Gavalas I think is the only producer of it, or certainly one of the very few. Orchard fruit and medium bodied white wine, we found the aromatics almost as pleasing as the drive and texture of the midpalate on the couple examples we tried.

Unfortunately I missed out on that one when I visited Gavalas.

@Kelby_James_Russell

Mavrotragano - What an absolutely wild red grape; dense, animal, and tomato. This may be a grape that is rare because it is so wildly inconsistent in style from producer to producer, but we were fascinated by it nonetheless.

I wish the producers didn’t make Mavrotragano into such a big, toasty “new world”-styled wine. Based on the examples I’ve tasted, it could make some of the most thrilling wines in Santorini, but so many producers employ way too much new oak with it. That’s why I’ve enjoyed the lighter, more fine-tuned and often non-oaky Mandilarias much more.

I don’t know if there has been any stylistic shift with the Mavrotraganos since my visit almost eight years ago.

[Clemens_H]

@J_a_y_H_a_c_k

Sciaccarello and Nielluccio

While Sciaccarello is native to Corsica (and can produce really interesting wines), Nielluccio is simply the Corsian name for Sangiovese. I wouldn’t give it oddball status.

[Brian_Curtis]

@Wes_Barton

We also made Alvarelhao.

We had a bottle of Harrington Corvo (Alvarelhão and Touriga Nacional) last night. It was quite enjoyable.

[Kelby_James_Russell]

@Otto_Forsberg

I don’t know if there has been any stylistic shift with the Mavrotraganos since my visit almost eight years ago.

Not sure if there has been a shift, but perhaps there is a split in styles similar to what many wine regions have been going through: producers who are eschewing the heavy oaking of the prior ‘wine generation’ versus those who are sticking with it. Heartily agree with you that it could be one of the most thrilling wines coming off the island when handled appropriately, it is a real treat.

Keep an eye out for the Katsano next time - it is both rare and enjoyable!

[Clemens_H]

Some people in Germany are invested in reviving historical varieties (https://historische-rebsorten.de). It is an ongoing project but to this day they have found vintners to produce wines from old varieties such as: Grünfränkisch, Fränkischer Burgunder, Blauer Arbst, Süßschwarz, Grüner Adelfränkisch, Gelber Kleinberger, Roter Veltliner, Schwarzurban, Schwarzblauer Riesling, Bettlertraube, Schwarzblauer Affenthaler, Blauer Muskateller and Blauer Gänsfüsser.
If you need more obscurity in your winelife, they have a shop on their website. (shipping to Central Europe only)

[leslie_renaud]

Ironstone Vineyards in Murphy’s has been making it forever. [Ironstone Vineyards - Products - 2020 Symphony]

[bretrooks]

Ken Volk used to make a Cabernet Pfeffer pretty regularly - I remember enjoying a few of those, as well as the only varietal Negrette I can recall seeing in a store.

CellarTracker lists 139 “varietals” in my consumption history, but backing out blends/ciders/etc. leaves me probably around 100 actual varietals. A bunch of those are less-common, especially in the US, but the only two I suspect are close to “oddball” in status have been Foja Tonda/Casetta and Mavro (as a dry table wine…not Commandaria).

[brigcampbell]

@bretrooks

Ken Volk used to make a Cabernet Pfeffer pretty regularly - I remember enjoying a few of those, as well as the only varietal Negrette I can recall seeing in a store.

I’ve had them to, came from the Siletto vineyard. They’ve got some wild stuff planted there. Let’s just say Brian Harrington got fruit from them.

Siletto Ranch — Siletto Family Vineyards

[Matt_Wood]

There’s not too much early Burgundy aka Abouriou around.

[Matt_K1]

I just finished reading Jason Wilsons’ Godforsaken Grapes book a few days ago, the book is centered around him exploring under appreciated and undiscovered grape varieties, primarily in Europe.

I’m a particular fan of Marquette and La Crescent, but I’ve been able to sample most of the older hybrids still floating around the U.S.

My favorite ‘obscure’ cross is Cabernet Dorsa, though I don’t know any producers who are still working with it. The worst grape I’ve ever had was Swenson Red. Yuck!

[brigcampbell]

@Matt_K1

My favorite ‘obscure’ cross is Cabernet Dorsa, though I don’t know any producers who are still working with it

2021 Cabernet Dorsa

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@Clemens_H

@J_a_y_H_a_c_k

Sciaccarello and Nielluccio

While Sciaccarello is native to Corsica (and can produce really interesting wines), Nielluccio is simply the Corsian name for Sangiovese. I wouldn’t give it oddball status.

Maybe, maybe not, which is what makes this an interesting inquiry:

Nielluccio