wedding pairings redux

WINE TALK
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Getting closer to locking in a menu and pairings for my wedding coming up late this summer, and was hoping the board might have some advice / feedback about these.

It’s a small wedding (40 people) in New York City, with the ceremony outside, then a reception & dinner indoors at a different but nearby venue.

For the bar/reception, I’m thinking of offering either a chilled Chinon (perhaps Baudry Les Granges) or a Passetoutgrains, and Massican Annia, as well as a kolsch and a limited cocktail selection, and a BdD / zero-dosage champagne (looking at: Jack Legras BdB, Larmandier zero-dosage BdB, or Hebrart BdB)

We’ll be serving hor d’oeuvres during this time:

  • Whipped lemon butter toast with grated bottarga and fried sage
  • Roast fairytale eggplant with harissa and marinated yogurt corn tostado
    -oysters on half shell

Then the meal looks like this, served family-style:

STARTERS
-Fresh mushroom and ricotta ravioli with almond lemon gremolata
OR
-Butter-fried radishes and chickpeas

SALADS

  • Little gem and microgreens caesar salad

MAINS

  • Skirt steak with chimichurri
    OR
  • Roast trout with a pickled aji dulce/citrus vinaigrette, with aioli

DESSERT

  • Panna cotta with strawberry-rose campari

We had the chef prepare the ravioli, the trout, and the panna cotta last night. My initial plan was to do Rampone (2019 Valle d’Itria Minutolo “Rampone” I Pàstini - Kermit Lynch Wine Merchant) for the white: my fiancée’s family is originally from Puglia-Bari and I thought this would be a fun thing to have, and an accessible and refreshing summer wine, as well as a new wine to most. I like the wine quite a bit, but having tried it with the trout with citrus aioli, I had the sense that we need something with more acid and more citrus flavors to stand up to it. The lightly perfumed, white-flower notes went quite well with the ravioli, but next to the trout it felt flat.

Any suggestions for pairing here? Maybe Massican’s Sauvignon Blanc? A Menetou-Salon Blanc? I’m contemplating doing the Rampone for the starters and then another white for the main course, although this may prove too logistically complicated or either way, seem fussy…

For the red, I am planning on Zuccardi Concreto 2018. Had my first bottle of this with skirt steak and chimichurri a couple of weeks ago and it felt revelatory. Purity and precision of flavor, depth and lightness—I think it can stand up to the steak but also not overwhelm the starters or even the trout (I know a couple of guests who will choose the trout but only drink red), and it can be served a bit cooler than something like a cabernet, which would be a positive given this is summer in NYC.

For the panna cotta, we tried a 2017 Coutet Barsac and a 2017 Ben Ryé Passito; the Ben Ryé was the clear winner in the pairing and I am planning to go with that. Then, a demi-sec champagne with the wedding cake (as per board’s advice in previous thread).

I’d be grateful for any suggestions or feedback, on any of these but particularly suggestions for the white to go with the trout.

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Congrats on your upcoming wedding! Sounds like a fun project to pick the pairings. Do you have a maximum price you want to spend per bottle? That will probably help the board with providing recommendations.

Also are you picking out the glassware too?

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Thanks! Re: max price, probably around $50. The Ben Ryé will go over that but we need so few bottles that it’s not a problem. I would be willing to go higher for something that really hit a certain need, but given that the average attendee is not going to be a ‘wine person,’ and that I’ve been able to find nice stuff around $25-$35 price point, my guess is that we shouldn’t need to go much higher.

I don’t think I’ll have much leeway with glassware. The venue is quite casual (a loft in Chinatown, with kitchen visible, etc) so I’m assuming it will just be “wine glasses,” probably with the addition of champagne flutes, and if we’re lucky something smaller for the dessert wine.

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Congratulations, James.

My thought is that it’s an extremely ambitious, complex and geeky set of wines and pairings. Which isn’t a bad thing per se, and it’s your wedding and it should be the way you want, but you might consider things like:

(1) Can the venue/caterers handle that much complexity? All these different wines, maybe different ones for starters and then different ones for each entree, constantly providing new glasses. It sounds like you might use several hundred glasses for your 40 guests. You should make sure what is really feasible and then build a plan within that. And with all you’re going to have on your plate for the reception, you don’t want to be fretting about how they were supposed to bring this wine out now to go with that and what’s going on etc.

(2) Are guests going to be able to stay with that much complexity? I have half a glass of red in my hand that I got at the bar when I go to sit down at the dinner table, the starters and salad come out, a server comes to give me a clean glass and pour me a sauvignon blanc to pair with that but maybe I’m not into that or don’t want to switch back to white, and then my entree comes and the server comes again with a new glass and a new set of wine choices, I have no idea what Menetou-Salon Blanc and Zuccardi Concreto are or whether I want to have either of them, etc. It might feel sort of overwhelming to a non wine geek guest.

(3) The selections are ultra geeky. Even if your entire guest list were hardcore WBers it would still be at the far geeky end of the spectrum.
That’s not to say they’re bad or that you need to serve a bunch of Rombauer and Prisoner just to give people what they’re used to, it’s your wedding. But you might consider whether some more familiar or comfortable choices should be in the mix? Up to you, of course.

Just some thoughts to help you focus, and by all means, make it the event you want it to be. Most of all, I just wonder if a simpler plan might go over better, be more likely to be executed successfully, and be less of a distraction for you. Some things just to consider.

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Chris,

Thanks for the suggestions. Good advice re avoiding complexity…this is why I’m thinking I should probably stick to just one white for the dinner. The Puglia wine seems fun but I am not confident it will pair well with the fish. As for too many glasses…my thought is, just give everyone three glasses for dinner at the table: white, red, Champagne. Champagne for toasts and will be cleared before dinner. Some will bring a glass from the bar but probably not everyone. Then, we have a red and a white at the table for the duration of the meal, and people can serve themselves. Then the staff can bring another glass for the dessert wine.

In terms of people being comfortable with the selections: I guess my intuition is that it’s more important for the wines not to taste too geeky rather than that they be recognizable in terms of the variety or domaine. Part of what was so nice to me about the Zuccardi was that it was both “delicious” and “interesting”: The fruit flavors really felt quite accessible, and the interest that the wine had, what made it more complex, came not from being particularly subtle or ethereal but rather a kind of purity or cleanliness. And in the end Malbec’s pretty common even if it’s usually in a heavier style.

Maybe chinon is too geeky? Passetoutgrain perhaps more accessible? I feel like straight Pinot ends up being either too generic, or too geeky/precious (and expensive). I hesistate to go with something like cabernet as everyone will just have been outside for an hour (and maybe have walked 10 minutes)

Is a BdB / zero-dosage too geeky? My sense is that the trend is towards low-dosage so people are used to this in champagne now…

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Putting this much “pressure” on the wine choice/pairing on such a special day I feel the outcome is way more slanted toward maximum downside and limited upside.

“these glasses suck”
“wait, thats not the wine to bring out now… it comes later!”
“they are pouring way too much”
“i told them to chill it… they didnt chill it”

Maybe you’re a chill/laid back guy and even with this wine intricacy if the service is “botched” you would not let it impact your day. I am not a laid back guy, i stress the details, and i let things that were not “to my specification” at my wedding ruin my day (as i look back on it). I hope this wouldnt happen to yours. So i am echoing the advice above… if it is not a wine-snob guest list the focus you are putting on this will only be recognized by you. and i think the dissapointment ratio is higher than the satisfaction.

I’m picturing this you talking to the manager “i specifically said i wanted these bottles chilled”. Manager “Sir, its your wedding day, please relax and have fun…”

(i’m having heart palpitations just recalling when that was told to me over and over on my day)

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If you are like me, you won’t remember what you had to eat on your wedding day let alone what wines went with what dish.

You plan ahead but until you are in the thick of it, you have no idea the emotions and nonstop activity you will be processing. My wedding day is a blur.

My advice is to focus on your bride, not the wine pairings and service. Find a serviceable quality bubbly, red and white that can be poured throughout and be done with it.

Just my three cents. Congratulations!

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Sage advice all around. That said, any advice on a serviceable red and white given the menu I’d be grateful for. Locking down a caterer and a menu has taken a fair amount of work and I don’t mind putting some effort into the wines as well.

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The Massican SB, PTG or Zuccardi, and champagne should be great. Plus, you’ve got beer and booze.

[cheers.gif]

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I really like that concreto, and I’m not much of a Malbec guy. Both that and the Annia do a good job of being both interesting (for the 1% wine people) and safe (for the 99%.)
I’d personally love to attend a wedding where they were pouring chinon but I’m not sure about mass appeal.
Have you ever had the Depeuble Beaujolais? Kermit Lynch bottle that’s well under $20. Could be a well received red option.
You could also always swap in an interesting rose at some point. Everyone loves rose these days.

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Good idea with the rosé. I was thinking of having a few bottles of the Wine Access Grawlix at the bar in case people asked for it. Could also put it out on the tables. Nothing special but it drinks OK on its own and with food I think…

Thanks for the Beaujolais recommendation, I’ll check it out.

Re Massican: do you think Annia would be better than their Sauv Blanc as an all-around? I haven’t tried to SB yet, I tried the Annia but under not good circumstances (gulping it warmish from a plastic cup at a bbq), but what I got was more minerality and less crispness, so maybe not as good for this creamy & citrusy fish sauce.

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Not sure on the Massican–I have a bottle of the SB but have never opened it. Maybe pop a bottle before committing? Also, for your warm-up red, I wouldn’t entirely dismiss pinot. There is lots of “entry-level” ~$25 oregon pinot that overperforms at the price and would satisfy all crowds. Good luck!

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I love the Massican SB (and their Ribolla blend) for light food pairings!
Quick story- Dining at French Laundry and I was in charge of the wines for 7 people. If you’ve seen their wine list you know how daunting it can be. I asked the Somm that all the bottle recommendations (except the Champagne) be from CA and had to include a Sauv Blanc for my wife. We went back and forth over a number of the other wines for the different courses, but the Somm easily talked me into the Massican SB as his favorite CA SB with food. We had it with 2 courses (I forget which). I’d never heard of it at that point, but the way he glowingly talked about it’s pairing ability with food closed the deal.
It’s a staple at our house and I routinely pair it with light courses at wine dinners. Guests love it with food.

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I like that concept. I don’t expect your bartenders and servers will be able to explain to your guests what Passetoutgrains, Chinon, Menetou-Salon Blanc etc are, but if it’s just “there’s a red wine and a white wine” and those are the wines, then that’s cool. You’re right that there are many wines that would be unknown to civilians but that if you just said “here’s a glass of red/white wine,” they’d think it perfectly normal and good.

Cold Chinon might be pretty out there for civilians, but it’s up to you.

I have been drinking a lot of different zero (and near zero) dosage Champagnes in the last year or two, and it really varies a lot. Many of them have plenty of fruit and would go over well with non-geek company, and a smaller number of them are the super enamel stripping all acid little fruit types that probably wouldn’t. Maybe just try whatever you’re going to serve first to see if it would work.

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One red. One white. One sparkler. If you want something special for your table, like a special sparkler, put someone in the wedding party in charge of it, and have them bring out at the appointed event/time. Then let go.

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Keep it simple. One crisp white and one easy drinking red. The wines you like are great but not for the general crowd of drinkers. Maybe a sav blank with a bit of mid palate fruit, Maybe a Pinot that is not to acid and has a bit of fruit.

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Muscadet secret etc main. At $30 bucks you can get a great bottle, I like them young, slightly effervescent which is great on the summer.

Rose would be second choice.

You may need red for few folks that don’t drink white - chilled boho, Oregon Pinot, or Rhone blend - halcon makes great ones - fruit but still light with acid. Would go for quaffable vs contemplative. People will be focusing on people.

At my own weddings white was crushed, lots of red left over, many cocktails consumed.

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I will chime in as a huge supporter of the Massican Annia. It’s a geeky wine in concept, but not when drinking it. Incredibly food friendly, and easy to gulp down as an aperitif.

On the red, why not a good Beaujolais (Thivin perhaps). Again it will be food friendly, but also easy/fun to just drink.

Two wines, end of discussion.

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I have only one general suggestion - remember that you are buying wine so your guests will enjoy it, not to educate them. If you think that no dosage champagne is the bubbly that they will like the most, go for it, but if you think they would like a little sweetness in their champagne, get that. Consider every choice in light of your guests first, and the pairings second. Since you know your guests better than I do, I will express no opinion on specifics. I will only give you one example of this concept.

About 20 years ago, we went to dinner at Del Friscos in New York with a large family group, including my mother in law. We have a lot of serious wine drinkers in my family and whoever was ordering off the list was ordering dry reds. My MIL asked for a glass and I knew what was coming, so I made a fuss and asked the waiter to bring me a wine list instead of giving her a pour. He brought the list and without saying anything or letting anyone see what I chose, I pointed to a wine. He looked at me like I was crazy. I said yes, and bring it in a regular wine glass. He brought it, she tasted it, and she went wild. She said it was the greatest wine she ever had. 30 year old vintage port . . . with her well done fillet mignon. You have to know your guests.

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Gotta say I’m not convinced by this ‘assume your guests will only enjoy or even tolerate the most typical wines’ advice that ppl keep giving. Of course the goal of a party is not to educate one’s guests, but to please them. However, I am often, indeed frequently, pleased by things that I do not expect. There is a range, determined by one’s previous experience, that limits what one can reasonably appreciate and enjoy; you can’t go from Stephen King directly to Proust without some education, whether formal or self-directed. But someone raised on Michael Crichton might enjoy Maigret or Agatha Christie if you gave it to them as a gift—might enjoy it more than, say, a very special, leather-embossed presentation of a Michael Crichton book that they’ve already read. And for those who simply read to pass the time, and don’t care what they read, Maigret will, if not delight and surprise, at least serve just as well.

My judgment is that Zuccardi’s Malbec is not at Proust or James Joyce level of complexity. Dunno yet about Massican’s SB but from the Annia their wines seem relatively accessible too. Some may miss the full subtlety or whatever, but the goal is simply not to be offensive and to be potentially more enjoyable. Another analogy that comes to mind is interior decorating or clothing: someone not well-versed in fashion or architecture and design may not be able to point out the full canvas on a suit, the goodyear welt on the shoes, the Venetian plaster and the birds-eye maple, etc etc. They may not even consciously notice a difference. But often one can get a subconscious sense of quality or interest in a field that one is not well-versed or even indifferent to, and it’s pleasing. That’s enough, I think, to justify at least some thought on the part of the host. Just as one may not wear one’s finest couture for a casual night with old friends, and yet still use one’s normal sensibility when dressing oneself. To try to second-guess an imagined poor taste on the part of others, and then cater to it, seems riskier than simply following one’s own taste—while taking into account, of course, an awareness of context.

If you’ve ever DJed—of course you have to play to the house. But that doesn’t mean you have to only play the songs that people already know. How boring life would be if you did.


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