WB Burgundy Appellation Series Week 6: Vougeot

WINE TALK
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Hello and welcome to week 6 of our Wine Berserkers Weekly Burgundy Appellation series! This week we will focus on the wines of Vougeot and the Grand Cru Clos Vougeot.

First, some thoughts;
-Does the Clos suffer too high of standards based upon its Grand Cru status?
-The Clos was solidly considered one of the best terroir in Burgundy. Would you guess that the increasing number of producers and land owners has degraded this reputation or do you feel that the inherent terroir just does not deliver? Or do you have yet another opinion?
-Are their specific climats inside the Clos that you have enjoyed?
-When was the last tile you enjoyed a Clos Vougeot?

Also, if anyone has on topic Vougeot photos, please post them.

[cheers.gif]

Cheers

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Some more questions:

  • What do you think are the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?
  • What do you think are some misconceptions regarding the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?
  • Who do you think are the top producers of Vougeot wines? (they dont have to live there)
  • Who do you think are some under-the-radar producers that make Vougeot wine? (they dont have to live there)
  • What vineyards do you think are overrated?
  • What vineyards do you think are underrated?
  • What is your most memorable Vougeot wine experience?
  • What other village do you think is most similar in style to the wines of Vougeot?
  • Any other thoughts or insights about this village you would want to share?
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Rays questions"

Does the Clos suffer too high of standards based upon its Grand Cru status?

If it is labeled as grand cru, it should drink like a grand cru wine.

The Clos was solidly considered one of the best terroir in Burgundy. Would you guess that the increasing number of producers and land owners has degraded this reputation or do you feel that the inherent terroir just does not deliver? Or do you have yet another opinion?

I suspect sloppy and unambitious winemaking is as much as anything responcible for the lack of Clos Vougeot being a highly popular grand cru. There are too many reports of wine from the “lower” part of the clos drinking very well for the dictim that not all the vineyard is grand cru to fully hold up. Plus alot of holdings are vertical and span across different areas in the clos or a producer may have various plots. It isn’t a simple situation.

Are their specific climats inside the Clos that you have enjoyed?

The best Ive had by far has been Mugneret-Gibourg

When was the last time you enjoyed a Clos Vougeot?

A month ago or so. Ill post a quick note.

My questions

What do you think are the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?

The wines seem darker fruited and rich. Not sure if Ive had enough to make that summation hold true.

What do you think are some misconceptions regarding the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?

Based on quality samples from the lower portion of the clos Im not sure the widespread belief that it doesnt warrent grand cru holds totally true.

Who do you think are the top producers of Vougeot wines? (they dont have to live there)

The best Ive had is Mugneret Gibourg.

Who do you think are some under-the-radar producers that make Vougeot wine? (they dont have to live there)

No idea

What vineyards do you think are overrated?-

No idea

What vineyards do you think are underrated?

No idea

What is your most memorable Vougeot wine experience?

M-G

What other village do you think is most similar in style to the wines of Vougeot?

Not sure

Any other thoughts or insights about this village you would want to share?

Im curious to hear reports about petite vougeot

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This is the most recent Vourgeot Ive had from a month or two ago. I didnt take notes at the time so Im going on memory.

2001 Potel Clos Vougeot - Mature medium intensity aromatics. Very light mouthfeel but medium intensity elegant flavors of dried cherries, dried flowers and aged-derived savoriness. Definetly a wine at or maybe even past its apex. Not sure if this is another example of an early maturing 2001, less than perfect storage or some combination of the two. A-.

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-Does the Clos suffer too high of standards based upon its Grand Cru status?

Certainly from its grand cru status but also from its historical stature. It is probably the most famous vineyard in the Cotes D’Or, for the Clos, if nothing else.

-The Clos was solidly considered one of the best terroir in Burgundy. Would you guess that the increasing number of producers and land owners has degraded this reputation or do you feel that the inherent terroir just does not deliver?

Both. We did a Clos Vougeot tasting a few months back ( Clos Vougeot Dinner - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers ) and while the wines were quite good, they just were not as good as some of the other village tastings we have done. For example, I preferred the Volnays we had last week over the Clos Vougeots, on average, even though, of course, none of the Volnays were Grand Crus.

–When was the last time you enjoyed a Clos Vougeot?

About a month ago at the Verticals and the Grand Tasting at the Paulee in NY I had several Mugneret-Gibourg Clos Vougeots that were outstanding. The best of these was the 1999.

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  • What do you think are the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?

I think of these as structured wines that require aging. Not really lush wines like Chambolle or Volnay can be.

    • Who do you think are the top producers of Vougeot wines? (they dont have to live there)

Mugneret-Gibourg, Faiveley and Jadot.

  • Who do you think are some under-the-radar producers that make Vougeot wine? (they dont have to live there)

I think that top negociants like Faiveley, Jadot and Drouhin make excellent Clos Vougeots and they these days seem always under the radar.

  • What is your most memorable Vougeot wine experience?

1978 Faiveley Clos Vougeot was probably the best I have had (helped by the fact that I paid $10 per bottle for my now gone stash when a store was going out of business. But my best Clos Vougeot experiences were (1) taking a tour of the Clos when I first went to Burgundy in 1984 and (2) tasting Clos Vougeot at Mugneret-Gibourg with Marie-Christiane Mugneret.

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I love Clos Vougeot, a still scandalously underrated vineyard in many quarters, and it’s certainly not only the parcels at the top that can make great wine. Apart from a surprising number of really splendid old negociant bottles I’ve particularly enjoyed wines from Lamarche, Grivot, Faiveley, Drouhin, Drouhin-Laroze, Thomas-Moillard, Arnoux, Laurent and Hudelot-Noellat. I wonder if Mugnier will ever take back the Faiveley holding, not that I’m advocating it?
Even among Burgundy grand crus, though, Clos vougeot resists any kind of young assessment at least once bottled and I’ve quite often seen a most astonishing flowering at twelve or fifteen years old. I would characterise it as a vineyard with quite a lot of the traits of some crus of both Vosne and Chambolle but with generally a more robust and masculine feel.
PS if you ever want to impress a French non-geek serve him or her a Clos Vougeot!

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Lots of mysteries about Clos Vougeot, as mentioned already in the initial posts in this thread, including questions that Burg lovers have wrestled with for mant years… By the end of this week, we will solve them all, and we will all be experts!!!

Just like we are all experts now on Gevrey, Morey, and Chambolle… [snort.gif]

Here is a link to the Vougeot thread from last year, with plenty of good TN’s and discussion.

Here is my personal (and amatuer) view of the Clos…

First division grand crus:
Upper slope Clos Vougeot, including Petit Maupertui and Grand Maupertui on the left (south) and continuing over to the right through the large Meo-Camuzet block to the right (north) wall of the Clos. Le Musigni and the other sections adjoining the chateau are the very heart of the Clos (IMO).

Other grand crus:
The mid slope and lower slope of Clos de Vougeot, which is roughly 65-70% of the total 50.96 ha vineyard.

Vougeot 1er Crus: There are only 3 or 4 and none of particular distinction IMO. This commune is totally dominated by the huge grand cru.

The Quandry of Clos Vougeot… How can the lower slope make grand cru quality wine?
The arguments against the lower slope are well known. Nowhere else (except Mazoyeres-Chambertin) does grand cru designation extend down to the RN-74. The ground is relatively flat, with deep soil and poor drainage. If not for “the wall” these climats would never have been classified grand cru at the time of appellation controlee. Across the wall to the right (north), you see Vougeot 1er cru land, not highly regarded. To the left (south), you see Vosne-Romanee villages only, not even classified as 1er cru. One can use logic to conclude that lower slope Clos Vougeot does not deserve grand cru status.

And yet, experience proves that there are some great Clos Vougeot wines made by certain domaines farming plots well down the hill. Could it be that there is a self-fulfilling prophecy effect? Because of the grand cru status, yields are a little lower, and vignerons take greater care to produce a great wine? Could it be that upper slope cuvees should be even better than they are, but are somehow held back by some domaines not being fully committed to quality?

I don’t know the answers. I am convinced that there is greater potential for quality in the upper-slope climats, and this should manifest itself by the wine having greater depth, complexity, elegance, and less of a rustic character when fully mature (which takes a good long while in Clos Vougeot). In actually tasting and drinking the wines, there are many exceptions, however.

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One thing I want to note about the “lower slope” and “upper slope” issue is that as a whole the whole vineyard doesnt have much a slope at all. When I visted there I was really surprised how flat the vineyard in general is. When one is in the midst of it is frankly seems virtually flat with subtle rises here and there.

This pic from a distance gives a good perspective:

Its really on the corner facing the photographer (Musigni lieux-dits) that has really any signigicant slope (and still Musigny itself is much steeper just accross the road). Ther section where the M-G sisters have their wines are even not that steep.

Im not doubting the the sections farther away from the road are better, I just think too much is made of upper and lower when discussing Vougeot as frankly the slope is very very mild in the vast majority of the clos. At least that is my memory of it.

Lastly, regarding steepness, when one walks the grand crus areas of Vosne it can be a bit surprising how flat the major grands like RSV, Richebourg, La Tache and RC are. Especially RSV.

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I am thinking of killing one of a pristine 4-pack of 2002 Jadot CV I just picked up. A crime?

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Nick, it would be a crime to post a teaser like that and then NOT pop the bottle. Just do it.

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The only Clos Vougeot I have really enjoyed have been from Leroy, most recently an '00.

The Domaine Eugenie also seem promising, if expensive…

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Berry’s list of questions…

  • What do you think are the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?
    Clos Vougeot: Inconsistent. There are over 80 different plot owners, and I think about 60 different wines bottled as Clos Vougeot. Many are great, others disappoint. The producer is all-important in buying Clos Vougeot. The producer’s position on the hillside is important, but skill, dedication, and house style are even more crucial, IMO. Deeply structured masculine wines that usually demand considerable age for the austerity to evolve into something more generous. Good QPR… Because Clos Vougeot is very large (50.96 ha) and has a reputation as a “minefield” undeserving of grand cru designation, there is little chachet to the name. Some of the best wines are underpriced relative to that same producer’s other wines.

Other Vougeot: Undistinguished. I have little experience with Vougeot 1er crus or villages. I’m not aware of any standout examples, but willing to learn.

  • What do you think are some misconceptions regarding the essential characteristics of Vougeot Wine?
    That Clos Vougeot is unworthy of grand cru, and is a coarse, rustic wine lacking elegance. However, careful selection is required to counter these misconceptions because in many cases they are true! I believe the upper-slope plots have greatest capacity for complexity and refinement.

  • Who do you think are the top producers of Vougeot wines? (they dont have to live there)
    My persoanal favs are Hudelot-Noellat and Mugneret-Gibourg, both superbly located on the upper slope. Also Jadot does well with a lower plot. Leroy, Meo-Camuzet, and Anne Gros are top flight but I have more limited experience.

  • Who do you think are some under-the-radar producers that make Vougeot wine? (they dont have to live there)
    Is J.J. Confuron under the radar? Drouhin-Laroze is for sure. Both with superb upper-slope plots. And Jean Tardy made great CV from Meo-Camuzet vines in Grand Maupertuis but his lease ended after 2007.

  • What vineyards do you think are overrated?
    Vougeot 1er crus.

  • What vineyards do you think are underrated?
    Clos Vougeot.

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IMHO, Grivot does very well from the lower part of the hill. A recent 2002 hadn’t yet developed much in the way of secondary characteristics, but was very promising.

  • 2002 Domaine Jean Grivot Clos Vougeot - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Clos Vougeot Grand Cru (10/15/2010)
    Too young, but what the hell. Opened (and tasted) two hours before serving.

Dark red, but not opaque. A slightly primary nose of mixed/dark fruit with a touch of minerals. Medium body and finish. The palate evolved over the night, starting with good fruit slightly dominated by the acid, softening to a gorgeous slightly mixed/dark fruit. I think it’s still quite primary and will improve. It certainly has plenty of backbone.

Posted from CellarTracker

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I love the Les Petits Vougeots from Hudelot-Noellat and Fourrier. Both rather delicate and subtle wines which could be easily taken for lighter chambolle styles.

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Gee Tom…we agree on something else! Grivot, Daniel Rion, Georges Mugneret, Engel, Choppin-Groffier(now Choppin-Chauvenet?), Denis Mortet and many others have provided real thrills from the Clos de Vougeot over the years. Like everything else Burgundian, producer is most important. Of course, with 60 different versions of it, consistency is going to be more of an issue than in the Cros Parantoux, but…for QPR a mature CV is always a good shot. In some ways, the Clos is a microcosm of the Burgundy wine system , and what makes it so fascinating and ultimately unknowable. And, as you say, one that non-geeks actually like…and they like how the name sounds, too. (Those French non-geeks don’t know all the “problems” in the Clos, I guess…or care.)

Too bad we can’t reach an agreement about your admiration for the 2004 reds, though… deadhorse

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You are kidding right?

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Of course.

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I find myself very often in agreement with you, Stuart. We shall see about 04s, I know no more than you or anyone else. What I do know is that whenever I’ve written off a vintage in the past I have been wrong. Burgundy makes fools of us all, particularly me, and I’m very happy about that.

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2008 Jean Grivot Clos de Vougeot, Grand Cru
Tasted 3/11/11

The nose of this is loaded with earth, stone and red fruit aromas. On the palate the wine has an underpinning of minerality that nicely lifts the primary red fruit flavors. The finish is long and muscular with the earth and red fruit each recurring with a hint of spice and firm tannins. This is quite good and obviously needs some serious time in the bottle. After a few hours the nose developed some nice floral aromatics. 93+

Anthony