Water treatment question

[Stewart_Johnson]

I’m setting up shop on Treasure Island and using San Francisco water. It looks like it is treated with chloramine. I assume that this poses the same winemaking problems as chlorine. Any advice on water treatment systems for chloramine removal?

[Gary_Schulte]

Stewart -Is your concern with reconstituting grape juice concentrates? Looks like a complex water pH problem related to the equilibrium of the mono- and dichloroamines present. The pH will control how effective activate carbon filters are at taking out chloramines. See discussion forum … Reef Central Online Community …Gary

[L_i_n_d_a_Lindsay]

Stewart
Just had a quick thought, do you have any requirements for your wastewater ??
L

[Eric_Lundblad]

Carbon filters are the best way to remove chloramine (or other chlorine based compounds). You won’t remove 100% of it, but depending on the type of carbon, how much, and the length of contact you can get the levels down to an insignificant level.

[Rick_Allen]

@Linda Lindsay

Stewart
Just had a quick thought, do you have any requirements for your wastewater ??
L

Ah LInda, they’ve been by to see you as well I see…
Here in McMinnville our waste water is supposed to have a ph between 6 and 11, and we are now required to keep a log. I suspect that this is a bit tougher in a Brewery. We brew twice a week and have to adjust waste water with every brew session. Haven’t heard anything about BOD yet, and hopefully won’t.

[Stewart_Johnson]

@Gary Schulte

Stewart -Is your concern with reconstituting grape juice concentrates? Looks like a complex water pH problem related to the equilibrium of the mono- and dichloroamines present. The pH will control how effective activate carbon filters are at taking out chloramines. See discussion forum … Reef Central Online Community …Gary

Thanks for the link Gary. You’re right, that is a bit more complex than I had imagined.
The primary concern with chlorine is it’s role in TCA formation. Secondarily, you would also like to get rid of it in any water used to rehydrate yeast or bacteria. I hope juice concentrates won’t become part of the toolkit.

[Stewart_Johnson]

@Linda Lindsay

Stewart
Just had a quick thought, do you have any requirements for your wastewater ??
L

Not so far. Knock wood. I’ll be the 5th winery on the island, and none of the others has had restrictions imposed. The navy installed a waste treatment plant sized to handle a far greater population and activity level than exists there now, so there is excess capacity that I don’t think I could dent.

[Stewart_Johnson]

@Eric Lundblad

Carbon filters are the best way to remove chloramine (or other chlorine based compounds). You won’t remove 100% of it, but depending on the type of carbon, how much, and the length of contact you can get the levels down to an insignificant level.

Thanks Eric. Have you found one, in particular, to recommend?

[Gary_Schulte]

@Stewart Johnson

@Gary Schulte

Stewart -Is your concern with reconstituting grape juice concentrates? Looks like a complex water pH problem related to the equilibrium of the mono- and dichloroamines present. The pH will control how effective activate carbon filters are at taking out chloramines. See discussion forum … Reef Central Online Community …Gary

Thanks for the link Gary. You’re right, that is a bit more complex than I had imagined.
The primary concern with chlorine is it’s role in TCA formation. Secondarily, you would also like to get rid of it in any water used to rehydrate yeast or bacteria. I hope juice concentrates won’t become part of the toolkit.

My first thought was that you were talking rehydration of yeast but looking at your location I thought maybe not. In looking into to this a bit more I found that brewers have had to deal with problem… http://www.hbd.org/brewbayou/LIBRARY/Articles/BT_Chlorine%20.pdf . The interesting thing I found was that Siemens has targeted a new carbon product based on coconut shells that is more effective on absorbing chloramines … New Siemens catalytic carbon targets US bottlers and brewers . In following up on the Siemens site you will note that they have been testing in California with this material …http://www.water.siemens.com/en/products/activated_carbon/granular_activated_carbon_gac/Pages/default.aspx . Hope that helps…Gary

[Linda_Baehr]

@Stewart Johnson

@Gary Schulte

Stewart -Is your concern with reconstituting grape juice concentrates? Looks like a complex water pH problem related to the equilibrium of the mono- and dichloroamines present. The pH will control how effective activate carbon filters are at taking out chloramines. See discussion forum … Reef Central Online Community …Gary

Thanks for the link Gary. You’re right, that is a bit more complex than I had imagined.
The primary concern with chlorine is it’s role in TCA formation. Secondarily, you would also like to get rid of it in any water used to rehydrate yeast or bacteria. I hope juice concentrates won’t become part of the toolkit.

Is this a custom crush facility? If so, the water is used throughout the winery, I’m assuming, and there is no filtration at all? In addition to rehydrating yeast, etc, I would worry about cleaning and general usage. TCA can infect drain and the like, as I’m sure you know, which can cause systemic problems.

[Gary_Schulte]

I forgot to ask the question on whether there is evidence to say that chloramines are known to be bioprocessed by bacteria into TCA…? If not is it the low sensory threshold for the chloramines and the low volatility(read sticking around) of the mono chloramine species that are the concerns? My guess that any beverage company in a chloramine area will have solved this problem.

Add - 3M system as FYI … 3M DF290-CL Chloramine Reduction System for Beverage & Ice 56236-01 – Fresh Water Systems

[Stewart_Johnson]

@Gary Schulte

I forgot to ask the question on whether there is evidence to say that chloramines are known to be bioprocessed by bacteria into TCA…? If not is it the low sensory threshold for the chloramines and the low volatility(read sticking around) of the mono chloramine species that are the concerns? My guess that any beverage company in a chloramine area will have solved this problem.

Add - 3M system as FYI … 3M DF290-CL Chloramine Reduction System for Beverage & Ice 56236-01 – Fresh Water Systems

I hadn’t really considered the sensory effects of chloramine itself. I’ve never been aware of it in SF city water. I’m mostly concerned that chloramine seems like a close enough relative of chlorine to be suspect with regard to TCA. My quick search on chloramine’s role in TCA production didn’t yield much in the way of an answer – which is partly why I posted here. This field seems to be in enough flux that there may not be a good answer out there, but I thought I would throw it out in case anyone had already tackled this issue.
As Linda said, if I need to filter, then I need to filter all the water in the (small) winery. The 3M system looks like it is meant to service a specific piece of equipment rather than all the incoming water for a whole building. I’m looking at a larger volume (15 gpm) GAC system from Pelican that is still only about $950 – seems pretty cost effective, but I wondered if anyone had come up with something better.