Vinous re-visits the 'nightmare' 2008 vintage in Burgundy

Michael,

I hope that this post doesn’t change your mind on opening the 09 MG, as I am always open to trying wines and seeing whether my ideas and inclunations are correct or need adjusting. But I should have included in my response to Nick that even in ripe vintages wines still do reflect the terroir (having lived through making wines in 2003, 2006, and 2009 in the Willamette Valley, those wines still do reflect terroir) and as baby fat fades other qualities have the opportunity to come to the forefront.

So, I hope that my post didn’t come across as just out of hand denying terroir in riper vintages. I just believe that the signatures are easier to spot in young wines (like the Meadows tasting) from vintages with fruit in a less dominant role. And to be fair, that these signatures are easier to spot in the best sites, vs the lieux dites in the 1990 tasting. It may also be fair to say that handling of wines has improved enough since 1990 that a re-enactment of that tasting wines of a similar growing season would be quite different today. But I have no idea what growing season that would be.

That said, I am happy to explore terroir any time and will check in the next time we’re heading your way. Though I’d like to contribute as well.

2 Likes

Sounds fun. I’m fairly certain I can pour some more recent burgs that you’d like. I don’t disagree with you that there are some unbalanced wines out there. We were just at a big blind tasting and there were a lot of wines that weren’t drinking the best. I think you would have been floored by the 2000 Ramonet Chassagne rouge I poured from mag though, it probably would have been right up your alley. Blind people were calling it 80-90s Mugnier musigny haha

1 Like

My guess is too that Marcus would have enjoyed that wine.

I’d venture to say I have the least Burgundy expertise of all posters on this thread but I will chime in with these points:

Historically for the last 10+ years my slant has been more AFWE, seeking CA Cabs from the 70s and 80s and Bordeaux up to 1990 with select bottlings from the 1990s - ideally from (older) friends with cellars willing to trade bottles or sell bottles. So with that viewpoint you would think I would be primed to like 2008 red Burgundy more than more recent, riper vintages.

Last Feb I had a spectacular 2008 Trapet G-C Clos Prieur - great aromas, good flavors combining ripe but not heavy handed fruit qualities, good herbal and flowery aspects, long finish, great balance. It led me to hold the secret notion that perhaps 2008 was an undervalued vintage

Keep in mind this next point is not re: terroir but enjoyability.

In Oct I tried with Michael, Nick, Mason, Steve, John + a host of beautiful women 2008 Ligner CdlR along with the the 2018 and 2019 Lignier CdlR.

The 2008 was clearly from a cooler vintage - as Nick says elsewhere, more of a Bordeaux lovers Burgundy, with lots of soil and animal notes (in a good way). And I would say more red than dark fruit. And given what I typed above you might think I would have preferred it to the 2018 and 2019. But to me its overall pleasure was less than the two more recent vintages. (Again, no claim to which expresses terroir better due to my more junior experience level.)

The 2018 and 2019 certainly were more dark fruited in quality - something that would tie into Marcus’ aversion to the more recent riper Burgundy vintages. From reading Michael’s other points, he says that the 2008 nees more time, and that may be true - but on that night I enoyed the 2018 and 2019 more than the 2008. .

Which in a way given my more AFWE bent was a bit surprising to me but I do need to be honet with what my own experiences were/are.

About 3 weeks ago I opened a 2008 Lignier Charmes Chambertin and it put this up on the recent Red Burg thread:

“The first aromas were qualities I associate with whole cluster: cedar and greenness. Behind that: red fruit, soil tones, deeper gamebird qualities.

These qualities were mirrored on the palate, though tart cherry also appeared on the finish. At first the midpalate was not speaking much but with time it started to carry some volume.

Overall this wine was certainly finely made. To me the predominant qualities at present are the greenness and tannins of whole cluster, rich meaty Gevrey qualities (including soil notes), and red fruit.”

It was certainly fine but did not deeply sing to my soul. It certainly could be the case that with more time - the wine will last - the wine will express in a more evocative way.

I’ll wrap it up with this final observation: I used to fall more in the camp of sit with one or fewer bottles of wine and really get to know it/them. And I still think that is a very nice way to enjoy way. But tastings where multiple wines and/or vintages are opened can also help (me) increase my understanding of wine.

Thanks everyone for the thought provoking notes - I don’t normally post this long of a note!

2 Likes

I think those are really interesting points; I will point out, however, that the 18 Lignier CDLR specifically is a bit unusual for a 18 because it’s one of the few 18s in which there is acidity and structure in good balance and the fruit is somewhat accessible with the structure. It’s one of the wines of the vintage, if not THE wine of the vintage, which is why I opened it. The 19 is even better, but is also from a much better vintage. I think Marcus would have also liked both of those wines, and probably more so than the 2008. They’re just better wines, both now, and in the future. Other 18s certainly may not be this good and many are not in balance, and 19s, while a wildly better vintage, can potentially be a bit fruit dominant at this early juncture, however, the lignier is not. I have 30 vintages of lignier CDLR and chose to open those 3 (that 08 was from John Davila’s cellar) because I thought they would be drinking well and educational.

1 Like

Marcus … thanks for your thoughtful responses. They are understood and appreciated. If we don’t have differing viewpoints, this board will atrophy from orthodox thinking and lack of fresh air.

The concept that any of us can opine definitively and comprehensively about any vintage, any producer, any wine is laughable. It’s a fool’s errand — one I happily and clumsily engage in all the time. :squinting_face_with_tongue:

There are no great vintages nor great wines —- only great bottles in the moment.

I believe every vintage has its purpose on any given night — depending on what the mood/environment/meal/guests call for …

3 Likes

It was nice to taste those three side-by-side.

I have loved the few 2021 red Burgundies I have had. They are a throwback to Burgs of years ago. Probably never will be as great as the 2010s, but my guess is that they could be another 2001 or something like that. I also have really liked the 2017s I have had.

By the way, the last couple of 2005s I have had have been quite good. I really liked a “lowly” Bouchard Beaune Therons. My guess is that eventually there will be a lot of great wines from 2005. I just have to live long enough.

2 Likes

I love red CM from Ramonet. Tasting a 2000 would have been a lot of fun.

What did people who can see think of the Ramonet.

Or even any given lunchtime!

Well they all thought it was Mugnier musigny blind as I said; many people thought it had to be an older high quality grand cru and favored chambolle, which honestly isn’t surprising.

I probably would enjoy that wine. C-M Rouge is a favorite for me and 2000 produced lots of delicious wines.

I also think regions like C-M often produce wines that really over perform with cellaring (that’s actually how it became a favorite region for me).

Hopefully, we’ll be able to catch up this summer, I love the board but it’s always helpful to be able to taste things to learn and refine my thinking!

I’m a 100% with on 2021 being a throwback vintage. And also on hoping it will be along the lines of 2001.

I hate to say it but I am beginning to believe that with climate change the good growing season that has no ill influences will wind up yielding riper vintages than I really enjoy. The “challenging” vintages, like 2021, are where hunting down who exceeded expectations will be wherr I find a lot of the wines I enjoy. 2017 is a vintage I enjoy across the board so far.

Good to hear for 2005 as well.

2 Likes

Well said, and I mostly agree with you. As much as we speak definitively about a place or a region, it’s very likely there is someone producing wine there that works completely differently from what is typical.

That said, as I get older, I seem to be getting narrower in what I appreciate. Hopefully, that’s because I explored widely in tasting wines for many years, and not because I am unappreciative of diverse flavors.

I really liked a “lowly” Bouchard Beaune Therons.

This wine used to be an annual buy for me for years, I’d pick up a 3 pack of Teurons and they would absolutely over-perform for the price. But that all changed with the 2018 vintage where they came in super dark and hot. Combinied with price rises it was an easy drop. I’d like to find some ‘21s and ‘24s to look at though, I’m hopeful they’d be prettier and more red fruited.

1 Like

I don’t drink a lot of ‘08s, and this thread is TL;DR…but…’08 Dujac CdLR was not great last night. Had a nose that showed older than it should. The palate was Dujac, if a bit lean, and not entirely balanced. Just decent and not a wine I’d hurry to drink again. ymmv

1 Like

That’s basically what I thought when we had it last week, it was fine, and the nose wasn’t overly stem dominant to the degree that I’d sometimes considered flawed, but it was dominated by the 08 lignier CDLR and just drinkable.

1 Like

A group of 12 of us did a 2008 Clos Saint-Jacques tasting last night, with bottles sourced from multiple cellars. We were fairly divided on favorites, and there was no clear consensus on a standout wine.

The Esmonin showed a fragrant nose, but the wine was slightly cloudy and ultimately lacked palate density and concentration.

Bruno Clair was the most inconsistent of the flight and never really came together; it was probably the least liked wine at the table overall.

The Jadot performed solidly but, to my palate, was very typical of the 2008 vintage—high acidity with limited depth and a short finish.

Fourrier offered some attractive fruit on the front palate, but it quickly gave way to acidity without much substance behind it.

Rousseau landed squarely in the middle of the lineup for me. A few tasters preferred it, but it certainly did not stand out. Like the others, it strongly reflected the vintage: very high acidity, a lack of clarity, and limited depth.

Had these wines been served blind, I suspect it would have been a toss-up between Jadot, Rousseau, and Esmonin. There was no excitement in the group for the wines or much heated debate because they were fairly monolithic and true to a weak vintage. Just not delicious wines generally. Overall, the tasting reinforced my opinion that 2008 red Burgundy is not a vintage that aligns with my palate—overly acidic, out of balance, lacking integrated fruit, and missing palate density.

5 Likes

Was that the Chicago group? Someone asked me if the Rousseau was gonna be any good and I was like

Yep, Chicago group. A few gents you know. It was an interlude flight for a fun Krug V Dom tasting we did. 88-02-04-06-08 mix of Krug GV, Krug Vintage, Krug Collection, Dom Vintage, Dom P2

1 Like

Nice, any standouts from the champagne?