Views on Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet

[David_Strange]

Morning all,

On Monday night one of the wines I drank was Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon 2002 (if you are vaguely interested my note is here). I’m told this wine is quite highly thought of but I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness. Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality? I’d be most interested in other Berserkers’ views.

Cheers,
David.

[jay_bonfili]

David,

My opinion is that the wine was once without a doubt one of the world’s great cabernets. That ended around '98-'99 with a style change which has carried through to this day. That style change has resulted in the type of wine you describe in your note. Yes, another victim of the race for Parker Points. It does however seem that folks are coming to their senses in regard to this style of wine. The mailing lists are shrinking and the public is voting with their $$$. I feel that the past decade (or so) of the “juiced-up” Cal Cab will be remembered as nothing more than an embarrassing moment for many winemakers and wineries and we will return to a more natural style of wine.

Note: The '92 Shafer Hillside consumed a few years back was near perfection.

[craig_v]

I still have some '99 & '01. I didn’t like the '02s and sold my other two btls soon after opening my first 02. There is no CA Cab worth over $125 to me. I picked up some 05/06 Dominus and that is top end for me in CA Cabs. I even passed on buying the 100pt '07 Kapsandy Grand Vin direct on release from the winery.

[B_Stucker]

David,

Your TN hit says much of the same about the elements of the wine as mine did from this weekend.

TN: 2002 Shafer Hillside Select - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The difference is that those elements are not up your alley. I think the key point of my note was the following:

If you want your wines to be thought provoking or if you dislike ripe full bodied Napa cabs, this wine isn’t for you. But if you just like a rich cab that is well balanced and delivers great flavors within a nicely structured framework, then you’ll enjoy this wine.

As for Jay’s comments, I think one of the problems with the shrinking mailing list is the constant price creep more than the quality of the wine. It is just no longer a really good value even if you like the wine. I know that I passed on the list when I finally made it a couple of vintages ago. It had just gotten to be too expensive…

[Humberto_Dorta]

Jay, I have to disagree with you. Not on the style, of course, you are free to prefer what you like, but on the premise that lists are shrinking because people are “coming to their senses.” Besides the silly condescending attitude of the phrase, lists are shrinking because prices are increasing and the economy is in the shitter. I am sure sensible drinkers would say well rich people have no palate, and so be it if one would feel that way, but the only lists not shrinking across wines in the US are value oriented, (and possible SQN) not style dependent.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@jay bonfili

I feel that the past decade (or so) of the “juiced-up” Cal Cab will be remembered as nothing more than an embarrassing moment for many winemakers and wineries and we will return to a more natural style of wine.

It’s truly frightening that I sort of agree with Humberto about this. Although I somewhat selfishly hope you might be right, it seems more likely that we’re moving towards a broader perspective about available styles, originating during the time of “Parkerization”. Demand for more of the Cab styles of old (80’s - mid 90’s) represents an excellent direction but there’s no harm in also having syrupy, oaky, and/or or uber-ripe monsters for those (possibly the majority of consumers) who simply prefer them. I also have very fond memories of a young early 90’s Shafer Cab that wowed a group of Bordeaux-philes.

RT

[mike_pobega]

Not a fan of the '02 either. In a classic vintage, they can be wonderful. These ‘super ripe’ vintages can be a bit much for some wines. I could only imagine where the '07 will be.

I had the '01 a few months back and it was awesome.

The economy is responsible for making room on many a list, not just SHS. (and notice I did not say ‘them all’), but SHS will always have its followers.

[jay_bonfili]

@Humberto Dorta

Jay, I have to disagree with you. Not on the style, of course, you are free to prefer what you like, but on the premise that lists are shrinking because people are “coming to their senses.” Besides the silly condescending attitude of the phrase, lists are shrinking because prices are increasing and the economy is in the shitter. I am sure sensible drinkers would say well rich people have no palate, and so be it if one would feel that way, but the only lists not shrinking across wines in the US are value oriented, (and possible SQN) not style dependent.

Humberto,
I meant no condescension. I truly believe what I state and I am one of those people who have “come to their senses.” I quit buying Bryant, Harlan, SHS and others because I no longer liked the style. My taste changed. The monster wines are fun the first few times you taste them - then you grow bored with the one-note solo. My experience was not unique.

Say whay you want about the economy - things had gone south for the monster cults, monster Aussie and many of the other porn wines - long before the the economy found itself in the toilet.

Has the economy played a part in mailing list decline? Of course.

My point is not about mailing lists. Perhaps, I should have used a different vehicle to make my point.

There will always be monsters out there. There will be less of them going forward.

[Steve_Saxon]

I can’t speak for other young Shafer HSS, but the 04 I had a couple weeks back was a total bore. To me something changed with them after the 97 vintage.

[Humberto_Dorta]

@jay bonfili

@Humberto Dorta

Jay, I have to disagree with you. Not on the style, of course, you are free to prefer what you like, but on the premise that lists are shrinking because people are “coming to their senses.” Besides the silly condescending attitude of the phrase, lists are shrinking because prices are increasing and the economy is in the shitter. I am sure sensible drinkers would say well rich people have no palate, and so be it if one would feel that way, but the only lists not shrinking across wines in the US are value oriented, (and possible SQN) not style dependent.

Humberto,
I meant no condescension. I truly believe what I state and I am one of those people who have “come to their senses.” I quit buying Bryant, Harlan, SHS and others because I no longer liked the style. My taste changed. The monster wines are fun the first few times you taste them - then you grow bored with the one-note solo. My experience was not unique.

Say whay you want about the economy - things had gone south for the monster cults, monster Aussie and many of the other porn wines - long before the the economy found itself in the toilet.

Has the economy played a part in mailing list decline? Of course.

My point is not about mailing lists. Perhaps, I should have used a different vehicle to make my point.

There will always be monsters out there. There will be less of them going forward.

I know what you were trying to say. I dont disagree that at least in Australia there has been a shift. I dont think the same logic applies to American cabs, but that is my opinion. I usually take umbrage with the statement as you phrased it because it means that I have yet to come to my senses, since I like big wines so much. FWIW I dont like the 02 much, but I love the 01 and the 04.

[Steven_King]

I just don’t like this statement…don’t know why. To think winemakers and wineries will be embarrassed for the style the CONSUMER dictated it wanted, is just silly. I love all styles of wines, and don’t want EVERYONE to go one way or another…I like variety. Maybe its just me, but I want a broad range of choices. Winemakers and wineries work too hard to be embarrassed of the fruit of their labors. Don’t like it, don’t buy. Just don’t expect your views to be pushed on others. Eventually it will all shake out via the consumer’s voice, which is HEAVILY dictated by an economy, good or bad. 07 is CLEAR that the SEXY Cab is still en vogue…and the winemakers I have talked to don’t see this style changing very soon. Maybe a TOUCH more calm, but still big in fruit. Try an 08…big in style and very approachable early on…because of the fruit accessibility. I truly want different style for different occasions. Just saying

@jay bonfili

David,

I feel that the past decade (or so) of the “juiced-up” Cal Cab will be remembered as nothing more than an embarrassing moment for many winemakers and wineries and we will return to a more natural style of wine.

Note: The '92 Shafer Hillside consumed a few years back was near perfection.

[Berry_Crawford]

@David Strange

Morning all,

On Monday night one of the wines I drank was Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon 2002 (if you are vaguely interested my note is here). I’m told this wine is quite highly thought of but I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness. Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality? I’d be most interested in other Berserkers’ views.

Cheers,
David.

I share your opinion

[Steven_King]

While not my favorite wine, I must say SHHS takes MANY YEARS to get anywhere and be ready to drink. The 95 and 96 are just starting to unwind. My only thought, was this wine is no where near close to being ready and still quite primary…the need for HEAVY AGE on this wine has made me impatient with this wine and no onger one of my MUST HAVE’s

@David Strange

Morning all,

On Monday night one of the wines I drank was Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon 2002 (if you are vaguely interested my note is here). I’m told this wine is quite highly thought of but I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness. Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality? I’d be most interested in other Berserkers’ views.

Cheers,
David.

[Bob_Kaminski]

@Steven King

While not my favorite wine, I must say SHHS takes MANY YEARS to get anywhere and be ready to drink. The 95 and 96 are just starting to unwind. My only thought, was this wine is no where near close to being ready and still quite primary…the need for HEAVY AGE on this wine has made me impatient with this wine and no onger one of my MUST HAVE’s

@David Strange

Morning all,

On Monday night one of the wines I drank was Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon 2002 (if you are vaguely interested my note is here). I’m told this wine is quite highly thought of but I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness. Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality? I’d be most interested in other Berserkers’ views.

Cheers,
David.

Steven,

The more recent vintages seem to not require extended cellar time…even according to the wine maker.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@David Strange

I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness.

So did I

@David Strange

Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that.

Actually quite a bit less than that IMO!

[Steven_King]

Thanks fro the heads up! I really appreciate it. Will revisit. Thanks!

@Bob Kaminski

@Steven King

While not my favorite wine, I must say SHHS takes MANY YEARS to get anywhere and be ready to drink. The 95 and 96 are just starting to unwind. My only thought, was this wine is no where near close to being ready and still quite primary…the need for HEAVY AGE on this wine has made me impatient with this wine and no onger one of my MUST HAVE’s

@David Strange

Morning all,

On Monday night one of the wines I drank was Shafer Hillside Select Cabernet Sauvignon 2002 (if you are vaguely interested my note is here). I’m told this wine is quite highly thought of but I found it to be a rather dull, over-ripe Cabernet that lacked beauty and distinctiveness. Sure it was a buxom, pleasant drink, but no more than that. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality? I’d be most interested in other Berserkers’ views.

Cheers,
David.

Steven,

The more recent vintages seem to not require extended cellar time…even according to the wine maker.

[David_Strange]

Afternoon all,

Many thanks for your responses; I hope I haven’t stirred up too much controversy by bringing up this wine which clearly divides opinion. I shall try and look for an older example of this, since it appears that people think it was better in the past or is just in need of time. As far as the 2002 went my fancy remained emphatically un-tickled. If this was made to charm the ‘paragon palate’ I worry that either Mr P’s tastes are somewhat unsophisticated for a wine commentator of such influence or that I have a massive blind spot when it comes to fruit-tastic, alcohol-a-go-go and generally well-tittied-out Cabernet.

Thanks again for your replies.

Cheers,
David.

[salilb]

@David Strange

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Have I failed to understand its quality?

Haven’t noticed anything particularly interesting or exciting about SHS either. I’m also skeptical as to how much better it gets with age, as a bottle of the '94 I had recently had nicely integrated structure but was otherwise fairly bland and boring.

(Though if you don’t mind ripeness, check out the wines Russell Bevan is making…)

[C_R_a_s_k_i_n]

Jay,

Let me guess, you like Togni.

Shafer HSS has made some of the most impressive wines I have had. I have a hard time predicting it, however. Some vintages are brilliant as a pop and pour fresh upon release (1999, 2004 come to mind), others need a decade or more to be fully appreciated.

I have a hard time believing they changed their style in deference to RP.

I think that too many people think that for a wine to be made “correct” it needs to be made in the Bordeaux style. I think that the evolution we are seeing represents wine makers realizing that Napa is different than Bordeaux, that wines are naturally more ripe and fruit forward, and that to make the best wine " true to place " the wines should reflect that. Just saying.

[Bob_Kaminski]

@Curtis Raskin

Jay,

Let me guess, you like Togni.

Shafer HSS has made some of the most impressive wines I have had. I have a hard time predicting it, however. Some vintages are brilliant as a pop and pour fresh upon release (1999, 2004 come to mind), others need a decade or more to be fully appreciated.

I have a hard time believing they changed their style in deference to RP.

I think that too many people think that for a wine to be made “correct” it needs to be made in the Bordeaux style. I think that the evolution we are seeing represents wine makers realizing that Napa is different than Bordeaux, that wines are naturally more ripe and fruit forward, and that to make the best wine " true to place " the wines should reflect that. Just saying.

Quite true, but the wines from the 70’s and 80’s do not resemble the wines post early 90’s (generally, with a few exceptions). I thought the wines back in the day did just fine being “true to place”. Is it better vineyard management techniques today that allow maximum ripeness? I guess it is personal opinion as to whether that is an improvement or not.