US Pinots similar in style and quality to Rhys

WINE TALK
41

Glen, which one are you going to drink? You have my curiosity.

42

I will need to pop a few of Bradley’s recent vintages as I have not yet witnessed this transition. Don’t get me wrong - I like the BB wines, but the pinots I have had are still a bit forward. The last Woodruff I had was certainly over the top (not sure where Woodruff vineyard is) - I like the Alfaro much more.

43

Besides some of the ones mentioned (like Kutch), I would add pre-2004 Dehlinger.

44

@ Alan, Rich: you may have misunderstood my last post. Non of my guests have experienced any Rhys yet so they were not able to appreciate it so far :wink: This is just my therory as I’m looking for some top wines that can be enjoyed by Non-Wineberserkers AND me at the same time :wink: But so far it’s only me having tasted Rhys and not my guests. And of course, I normally only serve aged wines, no matter if from Burgundy or any other part of the world. I’m not looking for an early access wine but an “easier” to access top pinot.

And -at least for me- there is a clear difference between an pinot from Burgundy and one from the US, no matter if CA or OR. The fruit presentation in US PNs is broader whereas in Burgundy PNs the fruit presentation is more focussed. Also, the structure hiding the fruit (in younger wines) is tighter in Burgundy PNs and more “open-knit” in US PNs. Also the tannins are mostly softer/rounder in US PNs compared to Burgundy. All this -and again thats just my impression- makes a US PN (even a Rhys) more understandable and accessible for an unexperienced guest. And sure, Rhys is more expensive here but I’m not talking about costs…I’m generous enough to offer all my guests a fine Romanée St Vivant…but if they cannot appreciate it (and again: I myself was not able to really get those wine for a very long time!) it’s worth nothing.

@ Chris: If you think this thread qualifies for “The most annoying posts about Burgundy” (?) then you may haven’t got the message…or maybe you have…I don’t care.

45

My four favorite CA Pinot Producers are Rhys, Arcadian, Ceritas and Kendric.
I find all of them unique and distinctive from one another.
But they all have something wonderful to offer.

Again, until Rhys and Ceritas have more bottle age to them to show their true potential,
I have to go with Arcadian as the CA Pinot that ages best, with secondary and tertiary flavors galore.
Kendric is a shorter term type of wine (but decidedly yummy).
But the jury is still out…

TTT

46

Jens-

I think that Rhys seeks to make wines which express the vineyard sites and is what most quality winemakers from most regions and countries strive for rather than trying to produce a certain “style”. If your palate skews old world for Pinot Noir, I would recommend:

The Eyrie Vineyards
Cristom
Cameron
Beckham
Franchere
Littorai
Hirsch
Holden
Bow & Arrow
Walter Scott
Big Table Farm

I also think that “American” Pinot is about as useless a generalization as “French” Pinot. I don’t know if any of the wines listed above or in this thread are readily available, but pretty much everything recommended is worth seeking out. Anyone could get mass produced examples of overblown or watered down Pinot Noir or any wine for that matter from anywhere in the world and make shaky generalizations.

Hope you find the wines you’re looking for.

47

Woodruff is near Windy Oaks. I haven’t kept up with Bradley’s wines, but the ones I’ve had from there were excellent. Wind Gap and Ghostwriter also source from there. Excellent site.

48

Jens,
OK, we can try to help. You have a number of recommendations here, and have clarified the kinds of wines you’re looking for. The wines in the list you said you have access to are all worth trying, to see if they fit your criteria. I can only give you advice based on my own experience, which is that the majority of California Pinots (even some on that list) are a little too far from what I’m looking for given my Burg palate. The one producer I already mentioned (Ceritas) probably isn’t available in Europe, and is only available here through direct purchase from the winery. I think the Kutch wines are worthy of trying. Littorai makes excellent wines, though my own opinion is that they are a little bigger and more mainstream than most people like to think. Copain is the second producer I mentioned that I think fits your goals. I don’t know if they have any presence in Europe.

Another thought is that I’m happy to bring over some California wines, in return for being served a fine RsV :wink:

49

I disagree with you about Littorai Alan. At least their relatively recent vintages have been generally stayed in the mid 12% to low 13% range (for example, Littorai’s Mays Canyon PN and Ceritas’ Porter Bass PN 2014s, same vineyard unless I’m mistaken, are a nearly identical high 12%). Not that low alcohol is balance, of course, but…

I would have/do agree with you that many of Littorai’s vintages in the 2000s were more ripe than their reputation indicated. During that same time, Rhys’ wines were quite structured. It’s my opinion that they’ve both moved to a similar zone of overall balance and approachability/ageability, tho it’s expressed differently…for example, Rhys still uses much more whole cluster than Littorai does.

50

Again, thank you all for the great recommendations…I’ve ordered most wines now and will hopefully come back soon with my impressions.

@ Anthony: you are absolutely right, those generalizations are somewhat useless but given the core idea of this thread I thought I should not go too deep into this…this would be for sure worth another thread and I’m also sure there are many already :wink:

@ Alan: Always welcome Sir :wink:

51

I bow to greater wisdom [cheers.gif] Admittedly, I haven’t had a recent release Littorai for probably 3-4 years. I love the folks and operation, but they had crept up in ripeness (and price). So it sounds like Littorai would be an excellent option for Jens as well.

1 Like
52

Jens,

Do you normally offer your guests DRC RSV?? And now you are suggesting you might do the same with Rhys??

While I might find it wonderful to be a guest in your home, neither of these wines makes me think of the other. RSV is picked as late as possible…not so true of Rhys. RSV is nearly 100% new oak…Rhys under one third. Depending on the vintage, both will use whole clusters.

Why not ask us what American Pinots remind one of RSV??

53

Oh, I know, I know! Because no American Pinot does?

Pretty sure Jens was using RSV as an example of his generosity, not his target wine. Not really sure what your point is. [scratch.gif]

54

Thanks Brady. This.

55

Jens,

How do you know this??
Have you ever tasted an older Beaux Freres Upper terrace, for example??

1 Like
56

Had the 2008 Rhys Swan Terrace this week and it’s really terrific domestic PN. Loads of gravy with great depth and as the wine took on air it got this intense dried red fruit aroma, that was mixed with a wee bit of candy. Unique for sure.

1 Like
57

Mel, I think you completely misunderstand my post(s):

  1. Like Brady mentioned I was using RSV as an example of my generosity. Precicely I wrote “I’m generous enough to offer all my guests a fine Romanée St Vivant”. This does not mean that all of my guests will be offered a RSV as a standard…I’m generous, not an oligarch :slight_smile:

  2. “Thanks Brady. This.” means he was 100% right when he was writing that I use RSV as an example of my generosity…not necessarily that he was right by writing “Oh, I know, I know! Because no American Pinot does?”…even though that at least I would doubt as well that something like an CA RSV exists.

But Mel, I’m more than happy to learn more about CA PNs…I’m not very experienced here and I will be happy to taste an older Beaux Freres Upper terrace…I would just recommend that you don’t take my posts as offenses because I’m not able to defend and explain my posts as detailed as I did above [truce.gif]

1 Like
58

Jens,

I see what you mean now.

This reminds me of Pandora or Netflix…If you liked Wild Strawberries you’ll also enjoy Animal House and Porky’s V

There are lots of wines made in oregon you mnight enjoy. Off the top of my head I would suggest Beaux Freres, Cristom, St Innocent, Ponzi, Hamacher…so many.

I think we ve given yoiu enough Ca ideas…

1 Like
59

This reminds me of a special dinner party I got invited to four or five years ago. Two collectors presented a series of wines going back to the Doris Duke collection from the 20s. Two of my faves:
93 Domaine Drouhin PN, a special auction lot
and 61 RSV,made by Drouhin

By the time we got to the '28s I was out of gas…

60

Like you, I prefer aged wines to young wines. This is why I still consider my cellar to largely be “too young,” despite having recently hit the 10 year anniversary mark of buying wines to cellar. Rhys wines, by my estimation, need time; if they don’t get better than where they’re currently at, then they’ve been a massive waste of money, for my preferences.

I generally agree with what you say re: US Pinot vs. Burgundy, but I find the Rhys Pinots to have the “Burgundian” characteristics you cite: focused, tight fruit presentation; tannins that are sharper and more drying than a typical US Pinot; very structured. That having been said, I have yet to taste a Rhys Pinot that I would have pegged as old world if tasting blind: the fruit flavors are still “very CA” to me.

Back to the aged wine preference: as a consumer, I would greatly appreciate it if Rhys adopted Arcadian’s model of late releases. Arcadian’s current release for Pinots is 2008, with a couple 2009 exceptions. And those wines still need time. I have a boatload of Rhys in my cellar, and none of it is ready to drink, and none of it is even remotely close to being mature or in its prime drinking window (but for a few Chardonnays, as I take it from recent TNs by others) — those bottles are just sucking-up storage space, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

To answer your original question: “None that I have tasted. But I haven’t tasted a very broad range of producers.” I love Arcadian to no end, but I wouldn’t call them similar to Rhys. Littorai is waaaay too ripe to be included in this conversation, imo.

1 Like