Two weird White Burgundy experiences, with happy endings.

WINE TALK
1

I was reading Francois Audouze’s comment that 50% of old wines that are thrown down the drain are probably fine. And, I think people , including me, jump to unwarranted conclusions.

Two experiences this weekend make me wonder whether we’re coming to unwarranted conclusions about White Burgs…influenced by the premox pandemic…and jumping to unwarranted conclusions. I had two them:

  1. Friday I opened a 1999 Carillon Pulligny-Montrachet Friday morning for dinner that night. i suspected it was shot (premoxed) when I opened it…and , as planned, aerated it in open decanter. At dinner, it seem “odd”…not oxidized by too much like apple juice, and pretty darkish to be good Puligny. However, it was not unpleasant to me (though it was to my wife). So…I left half the bottle in decanter and yesterday it was much much better…still a little apple influence. This morning, the wine tasted like a delicious 16 year old Carillon Puligny. (Whether this was still a little odd, it kept improving and improving.) I am puzzled and amazed.

  2. Saturday I opened a Niellon 1996 Chassagne “Les Vergers” for aeration to complement some escargots bourgignon and a 1971 Barolo a friend and his wife were opening with a lamb tagine. Again, I thought the wine was over the hill…after opening and after aerating. With cheese, my fairly knowledgable friend said it was “maderized” and on the way out. I couldn’t really argue though i found the wine pleasant despite it. With the escargot course at dinner, it really sang, though…and our friend remarked on that. As usual, I left the last part (2") in bottle. Today it is everything one would want a 19 year old Chassagne to be: honeyed,deeply concetrated and clean…and plenty of that 1996 zip to creat a long and viscous fruity finish. Zero wrong with it…and just lovely.

Two wines I would have bet on pop and pour…and with some hours of open aeration…were “prem-oxed” (if such wines are that “prematurely”?)…but…with even more aeration, they both turned out to be what I would have hoped before I opened them.

I’m yet again baffled…were I a billionaire…perhaps both would have been down the drain shortly after opening…and posted on Don Cornwell’s premox wiki as “gone”…yet…

Any thoughts…clearly these were not oxidized, whatever their issues initially…and after initial aeration. (The Niellon is, IMO, a beautiful wine.)

[scratch.gif]

2

Talk to Audouze!

3

just curious: have you left the wines at room temperature over night or have you put them back into the wine cellar?

4

Jens, yes…room temp (though we keep it cold)…no attempt to preserve the wine. Am interested in seeing what “aeration” does to it, which is why I do that and check on it again and again.

5

Quite something to read, Stuart. Alas, I have no older white burgs left to try this on, but will do so with my first “oxidized” that I come across.

Mike

6

I first had a similar occurrence happen with 2006 Oregon Pinot Noir. These were wines I had made, and since I made only 500 cases in 06, I bottled some 375s to use as samples for trade. The last case of these samples sat in the winery for 7 years and one day I decided to open a set. All the wines were dead. As I was getting ready to pour them out, the phone rang and I set them by the sink. It took me about an hour to get back to dumping them, and I decided to at least smell them again(my wines generally don’t go over the hill in 7 years and 06 is an exception) and try to learn a little more.
All the wines tasted fine. Exactly as I might have expected them to. I had never seen anything like it before.

7

Stuart…thanks for the TNs. Interesting…I will keep it in mind [cheers.gif] .


Hmm…interesting too. Perhaps Stuart should do this to all his 2004 red burgundy.

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Sorry for changing the subject, but what and how was the 1971 Barolo?

9

Guasti Clemente Barolo Riserva. The label was largely gone, so I had to ask my friend.

The wine was pretty closed and not giving that much …until the end of the evening, but then (I tried it after dessert) it showed really nice concentration and lots of acidity. The tannins seems almost gone, and acidity was holding it together. Were it my wine, I would have cleaned it and aerated it a bit earlier. But, our friend was wary…and didn’t. He didn’t try it yesterday, so I don’t know if it continued to improve.

10

Re: the WB…I think something other than “oxidation” is going on with these wine (those the Carillon was somewhat oxidized, though puzzling). I think it might be reduction…or…some chemical reaction I’m not familiar with. I think the Niellon might have shown reduction, in retrospect.

I posted because with the reasoned paranoia about “prem-ox”, I think some people trash wines that maybe shouldn’t be trashed…at least without giving them some aeration to see what develops. I’ve seen weird things happen with Dauvissat Chablis wines…and others, that I suspected (and others concluded) were “oxidized”.

11

Stuart, I don’t doubt your experience here, but I can say with confidence that I have never seen a wine which I deemed to be premoxed early on improve significantly (and I’ve held a fair number aside to try later, or the next day). I do think there may be mistakes made by some people, perhaps with less experience judging older whites. Just as some people want to cry “corked” for every wine opened, there may be a tendency toward this for possibly premoxed wines as well. All I’m saying is that, while there may be exceptions like these two you describe, I’m convinced it’s not a widespread mistake.

12

I’ve had a carillon BBM show heavily oxidized on opening then still show oxidation but more fruit the next day. Maybe the oxidation notes and fruit can go hand in hand. The wine still isn’t close to the same as a fresh bottle. This seems similar to other oxidized bottles of white burg I’ve had. It’s still oxidized but it’s showing more fruit the next day. The bottle is better, but it’s still not good. I know at least when I smell/taste the fruit i think “Oh man! it’s totally getting better!” but ignore all the other signs of oxidation that are still apparent. The more tolerant you are of oxidative notes the more likely you’ll believe that the wine is correct when in reality it’s still a flawed bottle.

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Charlie, I think we’re saying much the same thing, at least I made some allowance by saying “improve significantly”. Given that we normally expect newly opened bottles to change, and often improve, it doesn’t seem surprising that a newly opened (but premoxed) bottles could still “improve” a bit - though as you say, most of the time it will still be premoxed.

14

I agree…my only point is that all “oxidation” is not total or totally unpleasant. So…before concluding a wine is totally shot…give it some air.

The Carillon did not show initially “heavily oxidized”…but is otherwise similar to Charlie’s description. It not always “either or”. I think the Carillon I had was indeed “flawed” in that sense.

The Niellon…though, was ultimately a terrific wine…and very puzzling.

The main reason I posted is so people are motivated to go through what I described and Charlie described to see what might happen, rather than giving up quickly. The intitial evaluation on most wines can often be misleading. That’s why I’m a big advocate of aeration…to see how they change. Particularly with whites, I think aeration is almost always a plus.

15

Three years ago I had a bottle of 2007 Domaine Marc Kreydenweiss Pinot Gris Moenchberg Le Moine come back from the dead:

Interesting: it really does start out seeming so oxidized, it’s surely a hopeless, bad bottle. My glass took at least 90 minutes to start to come around, to lose that decayed apple thing and freshen up. Think I should wait several years on the other bottle.

Last week I opened my second and final bottle, and again it was dark and all about badly bruised apple. This time, five hours in a big ol’ Burgundy glass did nothing positive for it; I dumped it. Had it been a week later, after I’d read this thread, I would’ve at least left it overnight in the interest of science.

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I always wan to taste a wine the next day…after exposure to air. I don’t expect miracles and usually it confirms that a wine is flawed if it is. Some good wines improve; more than I’d expect do that. It make me think I should have aerated more-- or aged the wine more. But, I don’t have regrets along those lines.

Alsace wines do similar things…particularly some drier rieslings. They and Chabis seem to last and improve forever.