TN: Rhone Dinner with Sir Charles Redux

[Matt_Latuchie]

nice notes Alan - great to see you and the rest of the team.

loved the Verset, the Allemand SS was gorgeous (i think that was my favorite of the evening…), Burgundies were a fun diversion, and I was glad how the Juge showed.

looking forward to being back out west in a couple of weeks.

[Markus_S]

@Alan Rath

… Sacrilege to say, but I think most Rhones are not capable of lasting 30+ years, better at the 15-20 year mark where they have a little more stuffing left.

If we follow The Rule of Fifteen, which is a bonafide rule passed down through everlasting winedom, this gives Norther Rhone reds a very shallow drinking window. As The Rule states: “Only once a Northern Rhone red attains age 15 is it to be declared drinkable and thou shall open. Opening before the age of 15 is certain to cause all sundrie[sic] calamities and confusions and shall Not be ordained.”

As we can clearly see, if we follow this rule religiously and you say the Rhones only last until age 20, this gives us only 5 years to drink our wines.

[William_Kelley]

@Nathan V.

@Yao C

@Alan Rath

Sacrilege to say, but I think most Rhones are not capable of lasting 30+ years, better at the 15-20 year mark where they have a little more stuffing left

I guess the '94 Verset is the exception that proves the rule but I imagine there are several other N Rhone producers whose wines are not just capable of lasting but keep improving well into their 20s. Any thoughts beyond the obvious (Verset, Jamet, Gentaz, Juge, maybe Levet)?

At this point, all the remaining Gentaz bottles in the world are more of an intellectual exercise, they were all better years ago. I’m not sure what the point is of lasting 30+ years, to me the point is to age a wine to its plateau of harmony, then drink it. I’m not really a Juge fan, and I’d be especially careful with old bottles and I think Jamet is better at around 10-15 (this goes for Allemand as well). I think the vintages of Levet that last a long time may just stay blocky. The one that isn’t on your list, but should be, is Chave. Some vintages are seemingly immortal.

Hard to agree with this. 1990, 1989, 1985, 1983 and 1980 all absolutely singing in the last couple of years.

[Nathan_V]

@William Kelley

@Nathan V.

At this point, all the remaining Gentaz bottles in the world are more of an intellectual exercise, they were all better years ago. I’m not sure what the point is of lasting 30+ years, to me the point is to age a wine to its plateau of harmony, then drink it. I’m not really a Juge fan, and I’d be especially careful with old bottles and I think Jamet is better at around 10-15 (this goes for Allemand as well). I think the vintages of Levet that last a long time may just stay blocky. The one that isn’t on your list, but should be, is Chave. Some vintages are seemingly immortal.

Hard to agree with this. 1990, 1989, 1985, 1983 and 1980 all absolutely singing in the last couple of years.

Fair, were they at apex or on the decline? My Gentaz are all long gone and, for obvious reasons, won’t be refilled. It’s probably been years since I’ve had a bottle and it wouldn’t surprise me if the 1991 in particular were to hold on, but is it better than it was 5 or even 10 years ago? I don’t have the data, but I doubt it, at least to my palate. Keep in mind that you’re British and old wine is more ingrained as an archetype.

You’re probably that implying that it is no more than intellectual exercise is too strong but I don’t think that fading would be.

[CFu]

Had a 91 gentaz last year that was purchased on release. Still really young and closed. Reminded me the state the 91jamet is in right now.

[Jay_Miller]

Very glad to hear the 2004 Poyeaux is showing well. I’ve been keeping my hands off but might have to pull one soon.

nathan - any idea on how the 2005s are doing now?

[William_Kelley]

@Nathan V.

Fair, were they at apex or on the decline? My Gentaz are all long gone and, for obvious reasons, won’t be refilled. It’s probably been years since I’ve had a bottle and it wouldn’t surprise me if the 1991 in particular were to hold on, but is it better than it was 5 or even 10 years ago? I don’t have the data, but I doubt it, at least to my palate. Keep in mind that you’re British and old wine is more ingrained as an archetype.

You’re probably that implying that it is no more than intellectual exercise is too strong but I don’t think that fading would be.

All those vintages still have an abundant, even rich, expression of fruit and long, coherent finishes without any sign of drying or cracking up, so I don’t think they could be described as fading The 1980 and 1983 might be described as at apex, but to me the others remain youthful wines.

[William_Kelley]

@Jay Miller

Very glad to hear the 2004 Poyeaux is showing well. I’ve been keeping my hands off but might have to pull one soon.

nathan - any idea on how the 2005s are doing now?

Not Nathan, but they continue to be superb. That said, I think they’re a bit more closed than they were a few years ago. If you’ve waited this long, I’d wait a bit more.

[Nathan_V]

@William Kelley

@Jay Miller

Very glad to hear the 2004 Poyeaux is showing well. I’ve been keeping my hands off but might have to pull one soon.

nathan - any idea on how the 2005s are doing now?

Not Nathan, but they continue to be superb. That said, I think they’re a bit more closed than they were a few years ago. If you’ve waited this long, I’d wait a bit more.

What William said. I had a bottle of 2005 Clos about a year ago and it was superb but still young. 2004 is more open and resolved at this point. The Clos has been good for years. Incidentally, I had a 2003 Bourg the other night that showed silkiness on the palate, but the nose was a bit clenched.

[Nathan_V]

@William Kelley

@Nathan V.

Fair, were they at apex or on the decline? My Gentaz are all long gone and, for obvious reasons, won’t be refilled. It’s probably been years since I’ve had a bottle and it wouldn’t surprise me if the 1991 in particular were to hold on, but is it better than it was 5 or even 10 years ago? I don’t have the data, but I doubt it, at least to my palate. Keep in mind that you’re British and old wine is more ingrained as an archetype.

You’re probably that implying that it is no more than intellectual exercise is too strong but I don’t think that fading would be.

All those vintages still have an abundant, even rich, expression of fruit and long, coherent finishes without any sign of drying or cracking up, so I don’t think they could be described as fading The 1980 and 1983 might be described as at apex, but to me the others remain youthful wines.

Fair enough. It’s been a long time since my last data point and I don’t expect another one.

[Jay_Miller]

Thank you nathan and William! So long as I’m asking, any recent experiences with 2002s?

[Nathan_V]

@c fu

Had a 91 gentaz last year that was purchased on release. Still really young and closed. Reminded me the state the 91jamet is in right now.

I was lucky enough to have both of those 1991s many times in the late 90s to 2000s and the Jamet was always good and seemed fairly resolved for me. Maybe it’s better now, but I doubt I’ll ever have another bottle. Not paying the current tariff. Both were truly great wines, maybe the best Côte-Rôties I’ve ever had (well, and the 1988 Gentaz). I envy the young ballers getting their hands on well stored bottles.

[Nathan_V]

@Jay Miller

Thank you nathan and William! So long as I’m asking, any recent experiences with 2002s?

Nope, last 2002 was a Brézé about 5 years ago. I only have that and Bourg from 2002 and given the current market, maybe I’m a seller.

[William_Kelley]

@Nathan V.

@Jay Miller

Thank you nathan and William! So long as I’m asking, any recent experiences with 2002s?

Nope, last 2002 was a Brézé about 5 years ago. I only have that and Bourg from 2002 and given the current market, maybe I’m a seller.

Nothing from me, either.

As a totally tangential aside, does anyone know when the brothers stopped writing that the Bourg was matured in new oak barrels on the label? Had a 1996 in December which said that!

[Craig_G]

@Alan Rath

1983 Domaine Jean-Louis Chave Hermitage - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Hermitage (6/14/2018)
Medium light body, dusty fruit on the nose, missing the savory truffle notes I associate with older Chave; very pure, burgundy weight fruit, faded with age but delicious nevertheless, some air time definitely brings out more structure and a bit more complexity, but this is at the end of its life. Sacrilege to say, but I think most Rhones are not capable of lasting 30+ years, better at the 15-20 year mark where they have a little more stuffing left. (92 pts.)

I guess we needn’t invite you when we drink any of my Chave Hermitage, since it’s all older than your window now

[Alan_Rath]

Heck no. You don’t realize you’re dealing with a sophisticated person here…

7sELqobCIXU

[Jay_Miller]

@Nathan V.

@Jay Miller

Thank you nathan and William! So long as I’m asking, any recent experiences with 2002s?

Nope, last 2002 was a Brézé about 5 years ago. I only have that and Bourg from 2002 and given the current market, maybe I’m a seller.

You made me look

$500 for the 2002 Poyeaux? I don’t know if I can justify drinking it either.

[CFu]

@Jay Miller

@Nathan V.

@Jay Miller

Thank you nathan and William! So long as I’m asking, any recent experiences with 2002s?

Nope, last 2002 was a Brézé about 5 years ago. I only have that and Bourg from 2002 and given the current market, maybe I’m a seller.

You made me look

$500 for the 2002 Poyeaux? I don’t know if I can justify drinking it either.

I wonder if anyone is actually buying it at that pricing.

[Craig_G]

@c fu

I wonder if anyone is actually buying it at that pricing.

Gangas’ Law of WineSearcher: For a rare wine, WS low is the price at which it does not sell.

[Nathan_V]

@c fu

@Jay Miller

You made me look

$500 for the 2002 Poyeaux? I don’t know if I can justify drinking it either.

I wonder if anyone is actually buying it at that pricing.

That’s a good question. No one I know is, but when bottles show up at auction (which is rare) they generally sell for over high. From HDH in February, Bourg not Poyeux:

Hammer $1600, so $472 a bottle after premium.

DESCRIPTION
(3) 2009 Saumur-Champigny, Le Bourg, Clos Rougeard
Rated: 94+ RP, 93 AG

(1) 2010 Saumur-Champigny, Le Bourg, Clos Rougeard
Rated: 96 RP, 92+? AG

I think we’re seeing a new plateau because the Foucault brothers are gone and I’m sure the wine will be something $100, $200, $400 on release going forward.

All it takes with thinly traded wines is for a few people with deep pockets to get into it. I’m sitting tight for now, but it could get out of my comfort zone.