TN: Giving some love to Bordeaux Blanc

[Laurent_Gibet]

…
And when it comes to the SB, there are only very few places that make Sauvignon Blancs I really enjoy. And I must say that in that particular department, Austria is a winner - Styria really does make some of the most exceptional Sauvignon Blancs in the world. I wish they were easier to find! (And easier on the wallet…)

For me only a few Bordeaux blanc are really interesting: on the mid level Clos Floridene, Carbonnieux, Latour-Martillac, Malartic-Lagravière, Couhins-Lurton … on top-level (and usually always the best 4-5 wines of the vintage … in different order) Haut-Brion, La Mission-HB (former Laville-HB), Pape-Clement, Fieuzal, Domaine de Chevalier and Smith-Haut-Lafitte (most unfortunately pricey)

It´s funny that some of the best are still not Cru classé in blanc: Haut-Brion, Pape-Clement, Fieuzal, Smith-Haut-Lafitte …

The lower level wines are usually not very interesting and often quite neutral … and I much prefer our Styrian wines instead.

Styrian SB is available in Austria for 10-20 Euro (the better classic wines) and 20-40 Euro for the best vineyards and producers, only 4-5 special vineyards (Zieregg…) and bottlings (Reserve, Old Vines) are more expensive.
I have no idea what happens in other markets.

Good sites for infos and wines:
www.weinshop24.at
www.potzinger.at
www.tinnacher.at
www.gross.at

BTW: The World's Best Sauvignon Blancs | Wine-Searcher News & Features
(5 out of 10 of the best SBs are from Styria)

Do not forget the beautiful Laville Haut-Brion (70% sémillon, 30% sauvignon) which ages very well …

[Otto_Forsberg]

Styrian SB is available in Austria for 10-20 Euro (the better classic wines) and 20-40 Euro for the best vineyards and producers, only 4-5 special vineyards (Zieregg…) and bottlings (Reserve, Old Vines) are more expensive.
I have no idea what happens in other markets.

Well, the bigger problem is that most shops either don’t ship to Finland or there is no information on delivery costs to Finland. Many smaller producers seem to deliver to Finland, but the problem is that one needs to order 12-18 wines at one go so that the delivery costs per one bottle don’t get out of hand. It’s quite a big load of bottles from one producer, especially if one hasn’t tasted any of their wines before.

For most of the time, our local monopoly doesn’t carry any Styrian wines in their selection, so apart from some random small batches, we don’t have any available here, and most internet shops that carry a wider selection of wines from Austria tend to have Styrian wines very rarely. And if they do, quite often it’s just Tement.

And I guess it’s not a big surprise Austrian SB is easily available in Austria.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Delivery to Finland is pretty simple from France, I checked out delivery tool and is shows around e18 for 2 bottles and e35 for 12.

So not cheap for small deliveries as you say.

[Gerhard_P]

Do not forget the beautiful Laville Haut-Brion (70% sémillon, 30% sauvignon) which ages very well …

I think I mentioned La Mission-HB (blanc) former Laville-HB … however the current price-point aches, more than several Montrachets.
I had a few mature Lavilles, especially the 1964 was celestial, 1955 and 1962 outstanding. Most young LMHB blancs are very impressive, however at 400-900 € an easy pass.

[Gerhard_P]

Well, the bigger problem is that most shops either don’t ship to Finland or there is no information on delivery costs to Finland. Many smaller producers seem to deliver to Finland, but the problem is that one needs to order 12-18 wines at one go so that the delivery costs per once bottle don’t get out of hand. It’s quite a big load of bottles from one producer, especially if one hasn’t tasted any of their wines before.

For most of the time, our local monopoly doesn’t carry any Styrian wines in their selection, so apart from some random small batches, we don’t have any available here, and most internet shops that carry a wider selection of wines from Austria tend to have Styrian wines very rarely. And if they do, quite often it’s just Tement.

And I guess it’s not a big surprise Austrian SB is easily available in Austria.

All these monopolies are really BS … Finland is in the EU, so problems should not really be neccessary, but it seems they are …

[Gerhard_P]

Delivery to Finland is pretty simple from France, I checked out delivery tool and is shows around e18 for 2 bottles and e35 for 12.

So not cheap for small deliveries as you say.

That´s about the same as from France to Austria … no problem for 400 € wines, but for 20 € indeed.

[Gerhard_P]

Well, the bigger problem is that most shops either don’t ship to Finland or there is no information on delivery costs to Finland. Many smaller producers seem to deliver to Finland, but the problem is that one needs to order 12-18 wines at one go so that the delivery costs per once bottle don’t get out of hand. It’s quite a big load of bottles from one producer, especially if one hasn’t tasted any of their wines before.

For most of the time, our local monopoly doesn’t carry any Styrian wines in their selection, so apart from some random small batches, we don’t have any available here, and most internet shops that carry a wider selection of wines from Austria tend to have Styrian wines very rarely. And if they do, quite often it’s just Tement.

And I guess it’s not a big surprise Austrian SB is easily available in Austria.

All these monopolies are really BS … Finland is in the EU, so problems should not really be neccessary, but it seems they are …

HERE Weinpaket - PostAG
are the tarifs for shipping 3/6/12 bottles EC-wide … incl. the package
3 bts: 21,91
6 bts: 27,67
12 bts: 34,99

… at least that should be possible for professional sellers/wineries.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Even those prices are pretty steep. Nornally when we order bottles from internet shops, the delivery costs are around 0,9-1,3€/bottle (around 1,5-2€ from France), over 2€ is getting a bit pricey and 3€/btl feels expensive. Some even deliver for free if the purchase is big enough.

So six bottles for +4€/btl or 12 bottles for 3€/btl feels a bit steep! Ordering wines at those prices is not out of question, but such pricing doesn’t feel particularly competitive and doesn’t really encourage to order from Austria, unfortunately. Actually, it might make more sense to order Austrian wines from German shops, where the wine might be 1€ more expensive than in Austria, but the delivery costs might be 2-3€ cheaper per bottle. Such price differences are peanuts witj expensive wines, but in the price range of 15-20€, those extra fees can be quite big in relation to the total price.

[Gerhard_P]

Even those prices are pretty steep. Nornally when we order bottles from internet shops, the delivery costs are around 0,9-1,3€/bottle (around 1,5-2€ from France), over 2€ is getting a bit pricey and 3€/btl feels expensive. Some even deliver for free if the purchase is big enough.

So six bottles for +4€/btl or 12 bottles for 3€/btl feels a bit steep! Ordering wines at those prices is not out of question, but such pricing doesn’t feel particularly competitive and doesn’t really encourage to order from Austria, unfortunately. Actually, it might make more sense to order Austrian wines from German shops, where the wine might be 1€ more expensive than in Austria, but the delivery costs might be 2-3€ cheaper per bottle. Such price differences are peanuts witj expensive wines, but in the price range of 15-20€, those extra fees can be quite big in relation to the total price.

I agree, I´m also not happy with Austrian postal tarifs, but what can we do …?

[Gerhard_P]

Maybe DHL, DPD or Hermes are cheaper …
?

[Peter_Chiu]

Do not forget the beautiful Laville Haut-Brion (70% sémillon, 30% sauvignon) which ages very well …

I think I mentioned La Mission-HB (blanc) former Laville-HB … however the current price-point aches, more than several Montrachets.
I had a few mature Lavilles, especially the 1964 was celestial, 1955 and 1962 outstanding. Most young LMHB blancs are very impressive, however at 400-900 € an easy pass.

Nice to see your posts more often. I missed your knowledge and expertise comments. I still have 2 bottles Laville-HB from vintage 2000 ( Laville Haut-Brion 2000 -1030-2053 CA$218). I bought 3 of them at release and stored at cool-temperature around 55.

Any lately notes ? or anyone else ?

in advance.

[Pat_Martin]

Terrific notes and theme, as always.

I’m a big fan of Bordeaux Blanc and I always have been. And I like the simple quaffers to very high end wines, enjoying the different expressions. Value has become problematic as mentioned and I am far more willing to shell out for white burg overall, but if you wait for sales and discounts, I can still find good value. My biggest quibble is I don’t like the super oxidative profile these wines can develop, so I tend to drink them somewhat younger (though I’m still working through some 01s). It can be hard (for me) to know when these will start to turn, so I’m cautious. I also avoid the oakier chateau.

Once price, track record, style and availability are factored in, two chateau dominate my Bordeaux Blanc holdings and tastings: Malartic Lagraviere (which can be quite rich, oily and heady) and Carbonnieux (which is fresher, zestier). Malartic Lagraviere has gotten pricey but I always seem able to find it a few times a year for 40-50% off full retail on close out or at auction.

[Arv_R]

It’s impressive that you did this blind.

What? Why? How?

I just think the notes are more credible when they’re blind. The groups I taste with usually only have one or two bottles blind per (rare) event now.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I just think the notes are more credible when they’re blind. The groups I taste with usually only have one or two bottles blind per (rare) event now.

Ah I see. Your comment just baffled me since most of our tastings are blind tastings - unless they are verticals or of wines nobody has heard of anyway, so blinding them serves no real purpose - and consequently most of my TNs I’ve posted here have been from wines tasted blind.

I do prefer tasting wines blind so any preconceptions get minimized. It’s always humbling when a wine you dissed turns out to be your favorite or a WotN turns out to be a wine you’ve never liked before!

[Jay_Miller]

Gracias. Great notes and insights. I love the genre but generally haven’t kept up purchasing largely due to the poor QPR you alluded to. I think it’s a great field of play to seek out pleasant and interesting early drinking wines at the low and relatively unknown end though.

For me it’s exactly the opposite, because I’m not that big fan of early-drinking Bordeaux white - I find the wines interesting once they develop enough tertiary complexity and richness. The early-drinking wines often tend to be quite linear and seldom that affordable compared to the quality. And more often than not those wines that are affordable are just simple, crisp Sauvignon Blancs - a style I’m not a fan of.

So if I’m looking for pleasant and interesting early-drinking whites, I normally leave Bordeaux alone. I’m not saying such wines didn’t exist - it just calls for too much playing in a minefield.

However, when it comes to impressive, complex and ageworthy whites, Bordeaux is definitely a great place. Unfortunately, it’s still a minefield - some wines that should be rich, powerful and complex whites that combine good freshness with judicious use of oak can turn out to be just clumsy, fat, over-oaked whites with no sense of freshness or definition, or just simple, crisp and ridiculously overpriced Sauvignon Blancs that drink more like a NZ SB than a bold, old-school Sémillon-Sauvignon blend.

I’m hoping the Dom de Chevalier blanc (05, 06, 13, 15,17) in my cellar turn out to be worth it eventually. It’s a ridiculously slow ager as the 2001 drank at 17 years of age was as if it was made six monthly previously.

I’m not a big fan of dry white Bordeaux but well aged DDC is a notable exception. Unfortunately my definition of well aged is around 30 years or so.

[Jayson_Cohen]

For me it’s exactly the opposite, because I’m not that big fan of early-drinking Bordeaux white - I find the wines interesting once they develop enough tertiary complexity and richness. The early-drinking wines often tend to be quite linear and seldom that affordable compared to the quality. And more often than not those wines that are affordable are just simple, crisp Sauvignon Blancs - a style I’m not a fan of.

So if I’m looking for pleasant and interesting early-drinking whites, I normally leave Bordeaux alone. I’m not saying such wines didn’t exist - it just calls for too much playing in a minefield.

However, when it comes to impressive, complex and ageworthy whites, Bordeaux is definitely a great place. Unfortunately, it’s still a minefield - some wines that should be rich, powerful and complex whites that combine good freshness with judicious use of oak can turn out to be just clumsy, fat, over-oaked whites with no sense of freshness or definition, or just simple, crisp and ridiculously overpriced Sauvignon Blancs that drink more like a NZ SB than a bold, old-school Sémillon-Sauvignon blend.

For my palate, the trend towards cooler fermentations to emphasize esters and amplify the Sauvignon character of the wines was regrettable. When you drink great old dry white Bordeaux, Laville Haut Brion from its heyday being the benchmark, you have wines that are up there with great white Burgundy in terms of interest—even if they are totally different in style. They’re so textural and sapid and dry. Personally, I would like to see a trend towards more Sémillon, hotter fermentations to diminish the exotic/thiol-driven character of the wines, and long sur lie élevage. The challenge would then be getting people to taste the wines, because dry white Bordeaux seems to have completely fallen off everyone’s radar.

Old Laville is my favorite, but probably because I’m not fortunate enough to have deep HB experience. I’m quite hopeful for a recent auction bottle of 1994 DDC Blanc. If the bottle is in good shape, it should be excellent based on past experiences. But dry white Bordeaux is otherwise a hole in the cellar. I’m guessing I have less than a case total.

[William_Kelley]

Old Laville is my favorite, but probably because I’m not fortunate enough to have deep HB experience. I’m quite hopeful for a recent auction bottle of 1994 DDC Blanc. If the bottle is in good shape, it should be excellent based on past experiences. But dry white Bordeaux is otherwise a hole in the cellar. I’m guessing I have less than a case total.

When I’ve had them side by side I’ve typically preferred Laville FWIW. I’m talking 1982 and before, when they were under different ownership, of course.

1995 DDC is finally unwinding, a bottle last year was very nice.

[Andy_Sc]

I’m a big fan of Bordeaux Blanc and I always have been. And I like the simple quaffers to very high end wines, enjoying the different expressions. Value has become problematic as mentioned and I am far more willing to shell out for white burg overall, but if you wait for sales and discounts, I can still find good value. My biggest quibble is I don’t like the super oxidative profile these wines can develop, so I tend to drink them somewhat younger (though I’m still working through some 01s). It can be hard (for me) to know when these will start to turn, so I’m cautious. I also avoid the oakier chateau.

In my opinion and based on old, pre-1990 white Bordeauxs, they shouldn’t develop heavy oxidative notes for decades. What you describe here is what holds me off to buy larger quantities of young white Bordeauxs: Premox. Not often talked about but as big a problem as it is (was) in Burgundy. Any insights from others on this topic?

[Steve_Costigan]

I’m a big fan of Bordeaux Blanc and I always have been. And I like the simple quaffers to very high end wines, enjoying the different expressions. Value has become problematic as mentioned and I am far more willing to shell out for white burg overall, but if you wait for sales and discounts, I can still find good value. My biggest quibble is I don’t like the super oxidative profile these wines can develop, so I tend to drink them somewhat younger (though I’m still working through some 01s). It can be hard (for me) to know when these will start to turn, so I’m cautious. I also avoid the oakier chateau.

In my opinion and based on old, pre-1990 white Bordeauxs, they shouldn’t develop heavy oxidative notes for decades. What you describe here is what holds me off to buy larger quantities of young white Bordeauxs: Premox. Not often talked about but as big a problem as it is (was) in Burgundy. Any insights from others on this topic?

I’ve had a few premoxed white BDX, La Louviere and De Fieuzal come to mind, but the percentage is not as high as in white Burgundy. I’ll caveat that with my sample sizes are relatively small and may or may not be representative.

[Pat_Martin]

I had a batch of 2005 Carbonnieux Blanc premox by 2009.