def. a fan of '07 burg esp. Volnay
The few 07 Burgundies I drank so far were sublim. Surely lacking richness as Kevin mentioned but balanced and charming. I am not so sure that many 2011 Burgundies will show a similar character. I am sceptic if many of the wines from this vintage will be charming even with extended cellaring. But I am old enough to know that surprises always happen. Especially with wines. I bought no ´11 red Burgundy after tasting a few but a good amount of 09, 10, 12 and 14. I will buy 2015 as my last vintage of Burgundy and Bordeaux in significant volume because I am almost 60 years old. Nobody lives forever.
The 05, because of the vintage as well as the wine making , is when some Bordeauxs really became wine on steroids. The 10 Valandraud was one of the biggest wines during the 10 EP. I really don’t think it would fit your preference. It will perhaps take another ten to fifteen years to reach the youthful peak.
Kevin’s notes are clear, consistent and reflect his stylistic preferences. While I do not share his preferences, Kevin does a nice job explaining the character of the various wines and in a concise manner. One doesn’t have to agree with a taster’s palate to find usefulness in his notes.
I think Kevin is getting FAR TOO MUCH stick, apparently because he dares to express an opinion that is outside the mainstream on this board (but not in the wine world at large).
I’d gladly drink with him anytime.
I was lucky enough to taste in comparison, the same day, 2008 and 2007 red burgs at la Romanée-Conti and Liger-Belair.
The GC 2007 (Echezeaux and La Romanée for Liger-Belair) were great.
For both domains, my preference however clearly goes to 2008 : brilliant/tonic/fruity wines.
And I know people shouting on french forums that they do not like 2008 red burgs due to their high acidity … sigh !
The last 2011 burg I had, last sunday, was wonderful : Dancer Meursault Perrières.
Mind any generalization and do not forget the personal taste …
I wouldn’t peg the 2005 as the vintage when the steroid abuse began. It was much earlier, certainly 2000, but the Right Bank problems were very apparent in 2005, when we left the first tasting we went to, the Cercle de Rive Droite, shaking our heads and wondering whether this was going to be as good a vintage as everybody had said. They were extreme, and I have retasted some of the wines, and I have still found them very unbalanced. Of course they were not representative of 2005, but I do remember returning to my room that night, somewhat depressed.
There was a also a learning curve here. As a reaction to Parker, a few winemakers began to overextract, as though that could cure the ills of mediocre terroir or a bad harvest. In the vintages after 2000, I tasted a lot of wines where the over extraction concentrated the nasties. Recently, winemakers have dialed it back, and the wines are the better for it.
This is why I am curious to taste again some of the 2000 Right Banks.
I think part of the modern versus traditional debate is fear. In Napa, for example, high end cabs, restaurant wines, and supermarket $50 offerings, that are so ripe that the complexity in the terroir seems to have been replaced by the complexity of ripeness plus alcohol plus oak, get high scores, high prices, and in the $50 supermarket range, become household words and the name of the wine by itself is worth 300 million. Three…hundred…million.
So when someone praises an expensive wine where the house style has changed from a traditional wine with subtlety and earth and intellectual fascination to a delicious hedonistic wine, it creates fear that some of the great traditional wines will disappear. If there was region X which has and will always produce chocolatey wines and region Y which has and always will produce traditional wines and Kevin likes wines from region X, there wouldn’t be so much emotion. The fear is that formerly traditional Chateau A goes chocolate and its scores and prices skyrocket, so its neighbor still-traditional Chateau B faces economic pressure, and climate change factors, to go chocolatey.
The household names in California wine that sell in the $50 range, red and white, almost all disgust me in their cynicism and I enjoy a chocolatey oaky wine once in a while. This is what sells, and certainly is what makes new wineries rich in that price range.
I was at this tasting. Didn’t sit next to Kevin and so I don’t think I was influenced by his musings, notes or reactions. But we’re largely in agreement on key wines. And, to be completely honest, going in, I didn’t want to love Pavie (the wine I brought) or Angelus or Clusiere…all venerated by Parker. I’ve come to strongly disagree with Parker on many fronts, e.g., Aussie, Burg, Piedmont and even CNdP. And so, I thought that my disagreement with him would continue into Bordeaux. But it didn’t. He picked some winners in 00 St. Emilion. And so, it was Pavie, Clusiere and, particularly, Angelus, that showed up, although I knew Angeuls would. I have had the 00 before and it is simply stunning.
I wanted to love Ausone and Cheval…wines that I typically adore, own and have had in many, many vintages. But they didn’t show tonight and I, honestly and sadly, couldn’t pick em out. You’d think that the austerity of Ausone at least would be telltale; it wasn’t. And that the sweet fruit of the Cheval and strong Cab Franc note also would be obvious. They weren’t.
And, so, the education continues.
Thanks to Kevin…I am now back-filling many 2011 red Burgundy 1er cru and g-cru and too bad not too many 04 red Burgundy g-crus are still available… ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
"Jürgen:
My position is that an amateur should not broadcast that an entire region’s wines from a vintage are “tainted,” having tasted only a handful of them. (That is not a personal attack. I have not met Kevin, but he seems like a good and personable guy.) I would not, for example, taste the 2000 St. Emilions above and then repeatedly state on this board that the 2000 Bordeaux vintage is “tainted,” and buyers should be aware. I might say that they are overripe and smell and taste like chocolate and coffee, but that does not make them “tainted,” however much I abhor those attributes in wine. Kevin could have said that the 2011s are, to his palate, underripe and green and left it at that. He went too far calling them “tainted.”
Laurent,
I thought we are talking about the red Burgundies, not white.
Back to 2000 St. Emilion.
I had a beautiful bottle of 2000 Grand Mayne a few days ago. IMO nothing overdone. In fact an elegant wine showing wonderful freshness, medium body and very well integrated tannins. No blockbuster, over extraction or whatever. At least IMO.
The final verdict can´t be made so far. Let´s remember that the big guns from 2000 are still very young wines. I guess the peak of wines like Ausone, Pavie and Cheval Blanc is in 10 to 15 years. It´s not unusual that wines go through several dump phases until they are ready to drink.
I own a case of Grand Mayne and other 2000 Saint Emilion. The wines had a lot of Baby fat and concentration early but they are different today. I wouldn’t´t be surprised if the bigger wines will become way more civilized with time too. The positive evolution of 2000 Pavie may be an indicator for that theory.
1947 Cheval Blanc was the icon of the wine world for a ling time. That wine was almost 15% in alc. The 1948 Cheval was was above 15% alc. Maybe people who are complaining about 2005, 2009 and 2010 St. Emilion are right. I am not sure what the generation after us will say. But it is way too early to come to a final verdict.
BTW: I buy only few St. Emilion for my own. I am a Left Bank sucker. From 2015 vintage I bought a case each of GPL, Domaine de Chevalier, Leoville Poyferre, Giscours and Gazin because I thought the style and the QPR of these wines are ok to me.
Jürgen,
I know that we are talking about 2011 red burgs (but I was also thinking of difficult vintages, like 2004 and its vegetality, impacting both red and white wines).
To agree with you, I often disappointingly drank Grand-Mayne 1998 (another ripe right bank vintage - I had 12 bottles in my cellar) : okay, heavy, low drinkability.
The last bottle I opened was very good.
As you say, it hence had lost some weight, getting classier, more complex, and that was a good (unexpected) surprise …
Martin,
but I had the feeling you were pretty harsh in tone though Kevin is only an amateur as you mentioned several times. Furthermore we are discussing 2000 Bordeaux and not 2011 Bourgogne. So the question is why you are somewhat outrageous while all the others take the notes of Kevin what they are. A personal opinion one can share or not.
BTW: Chocolate covered cherries is something very common for Bordeaux wines from ripe vintages. One could find these characteristic easily in wines from 1982 and 1990 vintage before the 2000 came on the market. I know that pretty well because I drank cases of 1982 and 1990 Bordeaux. I guess close to 1000 bottles over the years. We live in the best times for being a Burgundy and Bordeaux lover. Many Chateau and Domains produce fine wine these days. The number of good producers and vintages was way smaller in former times.
We live in the best times for being a Burgundy and Bordeaux love
How much did you pay your 82 and 90, Jürgen ?
Martin,
I can’t afford to be a professional wine critic as I like to drink my own bottles and don’t care to constantly worry about not upsetting the property owners. Even for Neal or Antonio, writing the negative reviews of the top domaine wines can result in no more annual visits hence jeopardizing the career.
Which, of course, places them in an inherent conflict of interest and raises serious questions about their objectivity.
The few 07 Burgundies I drank so far were sublime.
Here is my 2 cents…producers, producers and producers.
In the year 2021 the same wines from your favorite producers from vintage 2011 …will probably more enjoyable than the same wines from your same favorite producers from vintage 2015.
Yes Laurent,
unfortunately too many wines are opened before their time. I still remember what Michel Bettane told me once. A wine like Grand Puy Lacoste from a good vintage needs at least 30 years in a good cellar to become what it should be. How many Bordeaux (or Burgundy) get the time needed to show their best these days? Saint Emilion and Pomerol are often a bit earlier at peak but as you mentioned – even wines like Grand Mayne should get more time.
One thing more: I still remember what was told about 2003 Bordeaux. Wines fat, out of balance and so forth. I opened bottles of 2003 Duhart Milon, Leoville Poyferre, Giscours, Sociando Mallet and Bellevue over the last weeks. A mistake. All very young. But the baby fat is all gone. All the mentioned wines show typical Bordeaux character with good freshness. I bet that almost nobody would identify these as coming from the 03 vintage due to the image of that year. 2003 was a roller coaster indeed and very bad wines exist. But the good ones are wonderful even if they emerged from the hottest year in history. Maybe even the 2003 Pavie I disliked in several blind tastings when it was young will become a very good wine. Who knows.
I learned that the wine world is full of surprises. Most of the times things evolve as expected. But not always. Somebody who think he is right all the time lacks experience or honesty.
Laurent,
you are right – the 1982 and 1990 wines were way cheaper than today. That´s a clear disadvantage. I bought en primeur most of the times.
I will not pay the price for the cult wines of today and therefore I buy GPL and the likes and I am happy with that. In Burgundy I buy a lot of Marsannay, Givry etc. A few bottles of Premiers here and there. I miss nothing. Recently I opened a bottle of my remaining stash of Chateau Margaux. Wonderful wine but I would have felt uncomfortable if the price I paid would have been the value of today. I live well but paying huge sums for a bottle of wine is just not my thing. I had all the big names from top vintages to know it´s not worth the money. Surely only for me. Others may think different.
thankfully I learned this a long time ago Jurgen. Rarely have I been blown away by these uber $$ cuvee’ s. In fact many producers leave me thinking that they forgot how to make good wine…esp. right bank Bordeaux…
for it was a bottle of heaven…the 1998 La Grave a Pomerol that told me this a couple years back.