TN: Coche-Dury Corton Charlemagne 2000 - 2012

WINE TALK
21

What’s that got to do with my question about the source of the “flint” that everyone describes and has described as a signature of Coche’s wines…since my first one, a 1987…in 1990 and visit to the guy in '92. And, for specifics ask Paul J.'s above post and ask him what wines Herwig served us that night in Princeton. (I brought Meursault (“Rougets”).
Though I don’t remember the year…or have any notes. I do remember selling all my stock of that wine and some Meursault-Perriers not that long after the dinner.

But, this question is irrelevant…“flinty” as a signature was in the '87, the '90s and all of the wines at Herwig’s generous dinner…and Don’s opening notes are replete with that signature descriptor. So…I ask what “causes” it…and what is it.

That I gave up on the guy and his wines shortly after that tasting (for a considerable profit)…has nothing to do with my question here.

Do you know, Alan, what it’s from and why the son has reportedly avoided it? That’s my only question/point.

And, can you think of another producer of WB…whose wines have a signature “flinty” aspect? I can’t. Anyone? [thankyou.gif]

22

His son makes really tropical ripe wines so I really don’t care about his wine making opinions as much as his dad’s :wink:

23

So…what “caused” the “flinty” signature then?

These aren’t “opinions”…something is apparently different , whether you “don’t care” or not about his “opinions”.
Any other producer’s wines “flinty”, almost without exception"? I’ve never experienced one…

24

Domaine Leflaive

25

i thought it was from sulfur. And I wanted to see your Coche experience.

26

Sulfur.

Flint is a widely known aroma for white burgundy producers that use a lot of sulfur.

27

Can you point to any others with such a consistent signature like that?

And, I thought sulphur blew off…this never seemed to…

It would be interesting to see if Herwig
can find out more about why the signature is now gone.

28
29

So, Coche’s signature is from sulphur…that fights with the fruit…

and, this is a desirable signature…??

My issue has always been that it is intrusive…and odd…and, maybe unique…

Now, I’d really like to know what the son has changed…and, particularly, why…

This is all akin, IMO, to those who thought “barnyard” was a very desirable characteristic in RB until the mid-80s, when the younger generation made sure to eliminate it, as it was from something undesirable (poor hygeine) even if people liked it. At every estate I visited where the Boomers were in control…they strived to eliminate this…and laughed when people complained.

I was too early in my career to have a justifiable opinion…but…I had little problem with “barnyard”, which pretty much disappeared after 1983 reds…were made…

30

Happy Easter to you too , Stuart . I was away for a couple of days …
The typical Coche nose has nothing to do with sulphur . You can have this “ match stick “ smell in some d’Auvenay wines but not Coche .
Imho , the Coche nose is a combination of hay and spices , not flint which I associate with Chablis and minerals/stones . I once asked Jean Francois about this typical Coche nose ( this was maybe 20 years ago ) and he shrugged , like they always do . He asked me if I thought it came from new wood and luckily , I said no , beacuse he then continued to say he did not use new wood in most cases .
I think it comes from his habit to brown the must ( he leaves if untouched for a couple of days so it becomes brown ) . The must obviously stays in contact with the juice . I am not a wine maker but that is what I was told . He also uses a lot of lees , he has one barrel of Corton Charlemagne with a plastic top so you can see what is in it ( a LOT of white stuff = the lees ) .
Paul , I hope you are right about the 2005 . I see most 2005 white Burgundies declining fast , a lot are already oxidising so I am worried . And I already had 2 CC’s 2005 from Coche that were sub par . ( all bought on release , direct ! )

31

Great notes and event Don. Thanks for sharing.

Some interesting dialogue about the sulphur/ flint notes. It would be good to know the in-depth details about what is what not only with Coche, but all the others where this comes into play.

32

I bet this is why Coche doesn’t have a lot of premature oxidation problems. They take all easily oxidizable compounds out in the must? A great way to take care of this.

33

Really good article from Jon Bonne talking about “juice browning”

The technique is called “pre-oxidation,” which might be confused with premature oxidation, but is actually just the opposite. Casually, it’s known as “juice browning,” which sounds mildly unsavory but is exactingly descriptive: After coming from the press, the new must, or juice, is exposed to oxygen, sometimes for a day or more, before fermentation begins. Often the pressing itself incorporates oxygen, too—a direct reversal of what was, until recently, considered good practice. The young juice grows murky, sometimes resembling apple juice or Coca-Cola.

PYCM does it as well

34

Yes.

35

This was such a fantastic tasting. Don, thank you for taking such great notes.

36

So, what do we think JF Coche’s “signature” “flint” is/was from?

I’m still confused. And…does anyone else use “juice browning”?

37

It’s from the lees Stuart .
And yes , a lot of top winemakers do .

38

Thanks, Herwig…

I’ve never noticed a similar “signature” in any other Chardonnay wine maker’s, though.

Please tell us, when you find out, what the son is doing differently. It is very interesting that he tries to be different, apparently.

39

For those who were at the tasting (or anyone else), do you think the 2006 should be drunk soon, or is there upside to waiting?

40

Scott,

I have not had the 06 CC in a few years, but I did recently have the Coche Village Meursault earlier this week. It is in a wonderful place today, so I suspect the CC would show even better. Coche does really well in ripe years, my bottle showed an amazing amount of acidity and energy. Here’s a link to the tasting note:

Larry