TN: Checking out how 2020 GG Rieslings are coming along

In all likelihood they missed out the part where you asked for 2019 specifically. If the previous release was 2016 a year ago, it would sound really weird if they’d release 2019 now. Technically it would be possible because in the spring the wine has aged sur lattes for the minimum required time for a Millesime, but I’ve understood Lilbert ages Cramant Millesime for much longer than what the minimum requirements stipulate.

Of course it’s always possible that 2017 and 2018 were not up to par and they decided to go with 2019 instead, but more likely things are how Russell said. 2018 is out next.

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Well, Russell just went from what Bertrand told him and the current price list… :wink:

I concur, that is most likely; it wouldn’t be the first time somebody miss reads an email and gives an erroneous answer. In either case it will resolve itself in due time.

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BTW, Otto, had the 2020 Battenfield Spanier yesterday and anyone could taste that there is some sugar there. It’s not a lot, but def not my definition of a dry wine.

If you’d had the same amount of sweetness in a Chablis, you would not describe it as dry. Horses for courses, I guess.

Probably me too, if I weren’t tasting wines but instead trying to taste blind which wines had residual sugar and which didn’t. That’s something that doesn’t sound one bit interesting to me, though.

Furthermore, I’ve told it to you a thousand times before: dry doesn’t mean there wouldn’t be any residual sugar there. If you taste a little bit of residual sugar in a wine, a dry wine doesn’t magically turn into a sweet wine. Wine has to have a certain level of sweetness before it can be described as “medium-dry” or “medium-sweet”. You might not like this nor describe wines like this, but thousands upon thousands of professionals and enthusiasts do.

Now you’re getting the hang of it! See the key there? I can point it to you: it’s that my definition of a dry wine. That is a different thing than the commonly agreed-upon definition of a dry wine. We all can agree that your definition of a dry wine is a completely different thing from the commonly agreed-upon definition, so would you please stop treating them as one single thing?

For the umpteenth time, I describe wines that taste like dry as dry. I don’t think a Riesling tastes like a medium-dry wine, but just because it’s a Riesling, I’ll write here it’s “dry” all the same. If a wine tastes dry and is technically dry, I write it is a dry wine. If it is technically dry, but tastes medium-dry, I write it tastes off-dry or medium-dry. If a medium-dry wine tastes dry, I write it tastes dry. Period.

If a Chablis had the same amount of sweetness, ie. it tasted dry, I’d describe it as dry. Tell me, what is so difficult to understand here?

The only thing that is different between Riesling and Chablis is that Chardonnay normally has less acidity than Riesling and a Chablis might undergo a malolactic fermentation, which translates to Riesling (that normally don’t see any MLF) being better at handling residual sugar. A Chablis with 7 g/l RS might taste dry or dry-ish but having a bit of RS, whereas a Riesling with 7 g/l RS most likely would taste noticeably drier than the Chablis and an average Joe or Julie would probably describe it as bone-dry.

You might taste the sweetness of glucose much more intensely than other people, which would explain how you can’t agree on the terms us normies use all the time, but your constant ranting from your soapbox is not just tiring, but pretty damn pointless, too. Can you understand how frustrating it is when one tells a dry wine tastes dry (because to me it honestly does, even if I can detect some RS there) and then you crash in ranting how I CAN DETECT SOME RESIDUAL SUGAR THERE SO IT DOESN’T TASTE DRY TO YOU - almost every time somebody writes about dry Rieslings?

I know it must be frustrating when I use the term dry the way normal people use it and mean it. BTW, I think you need to write a few letters, because all these industry publications are obviously as clueless as I am:

Vinepair:
“A dry wine is simply a wine that has no residual sugar, meaning it isn’t sweet .”

Wine Insiders:
“The reason a wine is called “dry” is due to it having no residual sugar”

Wine Spectator:
“A wine is considered “dry” when all of the grape sugar is converted to alcohol during fermentation, while a sweet wine still has some residual sugar. “Semi-dry” or “off dry” wines have a mild or softly perceptible sweetness.”

Wine Enthusiast:
“It’s any red wine that lacks discernible sweetness”

Wine Access:
“Put simply, a dry wine is one which isn’t sweet, due to it having no residual sugar.”

Wine.com:
“Dry red wine is red wine that contains little or no sugar. Dry wines are the opposite of sweet wines.”

Or, could it be, that the definition of dry away from your EU directive, and in the common parlance of every man, means dry = no perception of sweetness. Why don’t we start there, using the term the way normal people use it? That’s all I’m asking.

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Sure, wine that has no residual sugar is dry. That much we can all agree on. Also dry isn’t sweet. However, also semi-dry or semi-sweet aren’t sweet.

All of the grape sugar can’t be converted to alcohol. Even the most bone-dry wines contain some sugar, so in that sense the definition is wrong.

A semi-dry wine should also have some residual sugar, not just perceptible sweetness.

This doesn’t say anything about either white wines or residual sugar.

And here we go. A dry red wine can contain a little bit of sugar. I imagine the same applies to white wines as well.

Well, the thing is - I’ve been working with very normal people here in Finland, working in a wine shop for a better part of a decade, selling wine to common consumers. I know how they talk. Usually it’s the other way around: they say they don’t like sweet wines, only dry wines are good - and then they walk off with a bottle of mass-produced plonk that might have 10-15 g/l of RS.

However, I guess people might be more well-educated about RS around here than there, as all the wines have their RS as g/l in the shelf price strips. Some people don’t even know what that number means but most consumers do know how a wine with 1 g/l, 4 g/l, 7 g/l or 15 g/l of RS tastes like because they can check out the value right off the shelf talker.

It also made my job a lot easier!

Oh and if Wine Spectator is an allowed source, let me quote it too:

“Semi-dry” and “off-dry” are two terms for the same thing. Dryness in wine has a technical definition: Wines with less than 10 grams of residual sugar per liter are considered “dry,” those with more than 30 grams per liter are “sweet,” and anything that falls between is considered “off-dry” or “semi-dry.”

The numbers aren’t the same as here in the EU, yet still the basic idea is the same.

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@Adam_Frisch going to jump into the fray here once more for the fun of it.

What percentage of wines on the market red and white would fit your definition of dry. I had a taste of a high end cab the other night that surely had some RS in it.

I think regulars around here already know that Adam only considers a wine dry if it’s bone dry. This is not the common definition of dry wine according to most people, but he’s entitled to his opinion (and there is a bit of merit to it, even if I don’t agree).

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I would say the majority of the wines I drink, but I drink mainly from smaller producers. It takes a very sophisticated outfit/winery (read big) to make wines with RS in it and have it stable.

How about Amarones you used to love? Wineries both big and small make them and most of these wines fit easily the definition of medium-dry. Ripassos, too.

And what here is your definition of “wine with RS”? Most red wines have a few grams of RS and it seems you think Rieslings with that much RS are medium-dry, am I correct?

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I would submit that nearly all of those definitions of “dry wine” are wrong, or – at best – vague and ambiguous (and therefore “poor”).

Yet, they continue.

“Trocken = bone dry”

https://grapecollective.com/articles/understanding-german-riesling-zeroing-in-on-sweetness

That’s just poor journalism, nothing to do with with the accuracy of wine terminology.

Of course I can understand if people get confused by the terms if they base their understanding on such poorly written pieces.

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