TN: Checking out how 2020 GG Rieslings are coming along

The perception of dryness here was dry.

A normal person can’t discern a difference of 3 g/l - that’s a bit over half a sugar cube dissolved into one liter of water. That applies to a difference between 0 and 3 g/l as well as to 8 and 11 g/l. A discerning palate can be trained to differentiate a number slightly smaller than that, but not much.

And in wine, things get even more difficult when you add stuff like acidity, alcohol, fruit flavors that can add an illusion of sweetness, etc. So no, no matter how long you keep ranting on your soapbox, I’m not describing it as dry within the canon of Riesling. I’m describing it as dry as within the canon of wine and how it tastes like. A difference of 0.23% in residual sugar is something a normal palate can’t detect - especially if there is + 7 g/l titratable acidity to neutralize any sensation of sweetness.

Funny. It’s completely opposite to me. You see, the term “dry” has a very specific meaning in the wine lexicon with which the wines are classified. A wine with 4 g/l or below residual sugar is always classified as dry - basically because a normal palate can’t say any meaningful difference in the sweetness of a wine that has 0.5 g/l or 4 g/l residual sugar. Furthermore, as long as the amount of residual sugar isn’t higher than the titratable acidity by 2 g/l (in tartaric acid), the wine can be described as dry up to 9.9 g/l RS. So a wine with 9.9 g/l RS and 8 g/l TA can be described as dry (and even if most people can detect a little bit of residual sugar sweetness, almost everybody would still describe the wine as “dry”), but a wine with 9.5 g/l RS and 7 g/l TA should be described as half-dry.

If you can differentiate a difference of 1 g/l in RS - good for you, you freak of nature! However, to most people, this is way beyond the capabilities of their palate. Furthermore, you should learn to make the difference between dry and bone-dry (or some similar term to describe the extreme end of dryness and complete lack of residual sugar). Dry is a technical term widely accepted in wine terminology, which allows a tiny bit of residual sugar sweetness and I continue to use it the way everybody else is using. You are free to nitpick if somebody describes a wine bone-dry yet somebody is able to detect a tiny smidgen of residual sugar sweetness there, but you should not be complaining about the usage of the term “dry” because it has a very long history of usage in describing a certain style of wine with clear-cut numeric values which one can always refer to.

And when it comes to how I describe wines, I will continue to comment on the sweetness if it sticks out. If it doesn’t, the wine is completely in balance, any possible residual sugar is in harmony with the acidity and other components and the wine can be described as “dry” in the sense it is accepted in the larger wine world, I will say it is a dry wine. You can continue to be upset if a wine that has 3 g/l residual sugar is described as dry, but I really don’t mind and if a wine with 7 g/l RS tastes dry to me, I will happily describe it as dry.

No, I did not. It’s very rare I find RS in GG Rieslings noticeable to any extent - basically only in wines where the RS values are closer to the allowed high end (9 g/l) in warmer vintages, where the acidity is lower and the fruit flavors (more, say, peachy than lemony) tend to accentuate sweetness.

After all, it is quite typical for a wine to finish at 1 to 4 g/l RS. Even if people don’t actively think about it, almost all the wines we drink tend to have a few grams of RS in them, even the very dry ones. Getting down to below 1 g/l RS is not that common, since most wines usually can have more than 1 g/l of unfermentable sugars, which means the wine needs brettanomyces or other rogue yeasts that are capable of metabolizing more complex carbohydrates.

So even if the difference between the RS might look huge (there’s 300% more residual sugar in Battenfeld-Spanier than in Dr. Bürklin-Wolf!!!), the difference between them is just 0.23% - only 1/450 of the wine’s weight. Glucose just isn’t that sweet molecule that my palate would be able to discern this kind of difference!

Also, if I’ve described the von Winning wine having “dry flavors”, that’s what I mean. The residual sugar component might accentuate the fruit flavors so that there are more sweet-tasting flavors like pineapple, apricots or honey, but all of those could have just come from oak. We don’t have any analyses or technical details when we taste the wines and nobody really thinks about them in the moment! Rest assured, had there been a wine where the residual sugar really starts to stick out, making the wine feel more off-dry rather than dry, I would’ve commented on this in the tasting note!

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And I also apologize for the wall of text! :melting_face:

No! that’s my morning read :sweat_smile:

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Riesling with or without sugar with that? :joy:

Cappuccino, no sugar, but from there to Riesling is just a small step :joy:

Early morning, who can tell the difference - both will get you energized and good to go :joy:

How would you compare the GG’s to some of the single vineyard finger lake dry Rieslings? Maybe like the Ravines Argetsinger?

@Otto_Forsberg

Send me a bottle and I will tell you!

Not much Finger Lakes Rieslings here. And by “not much” I mean any.

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Haven’t had that Ravines wine, but in general I find the FL wines, even the best ones, to have less body. Stylistically they remind me more of the Kabinett Trocken styles of German wines rather than the larger-scaled GGs. Still some really nice wines coming out of the Finger Lakes these days, just not competing at that level yet.

Thank you! I was just curious since I have yet to try a GG.

The Argetsinger is my favorite wine from the Finger Lakes. It is sad to say but it is not ever close to a top GG. They just don’t have the combination of acid and fruit you get from Germany. I grew up in upstate NY and would like nothing more to love them and heck if they were even close I would have bought vineyard land up there long ago.

Wow I can only imagine then. Sounds like I need to get some GG’s! When you mean “top” GG, what estates (preferably not unicorn bottles) are you referring to? I’m just curious because I might go seek those to get a benchmark for GG.

I really enjoy the Argetsinger as well. Have you tried any aged examples (how are those)? Latest I have tried has been 2017, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Can’t go wrong with a Schäfer-Fröhlich Felseneck GG. Or a Dönnhoff Hermannshöhle or Emrich-Schönleber Halenberg.

All different but all pretty easily available.

Top GGs are among the great white wines of the world. Those are the wines against which to measure the best GGs, not other dry Rieslings, in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong - I love the pleasure from the “lesser” versions, particularly for the price. But GGs are, for me, a different beast.

The noble sweets are, to be sure, fantastic wines, but due to the contrast of sweet to dry, it’s harder to compare them out of category, to my mind.

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Really nice horizontal notes on some top GGs from 2020. You capture the sensory subtleties of many of these wines in really vivid and clear prose. When you write “almost all the other wines felt like they were bottled yesterday” that is my impression as well. 2020 GGs are still drinking really, really young in 2023, and it is hard for me to enjoy them at all at this stage. Also, finally, my compliments for how you discussed the recent use of barrique at Von Winning. You give a fair and nuanced description of how they approach this classic technique nowadays.

Well one could use a Trimbach CFE or CSH or perhaps a Hirtzberger or Gobelsburg from Austria. :slight_smile:

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Fair point.

Has anyone tried the 2020 Clemens Busch or Richter GGs yet?

Really strange indeed. Last year when I made my reservation for this year he was still saying it’s going to be the 2017 vintage.

18 vintage now, then 17 next year. Then 19.

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