TN: 2014 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Clos de L'Echelier

[Dennis_Atick]

It finally felt like fall today and I decided to braise some short ribs and pop a little Thierry Germain.

• 2014 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Clos de L’Echelier - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (10/17/2021)
  This really takes some time to come on. Decanted about 30 mins, and first glass was a decent drink, a good compliment to braised short ribs, but rather unremarkable. It is well made. Pure. It is solidly Cab Franc, some green pepper, earth and tart cherry. With air, it definitely puts on more personality, and becomes more complete. A good drink, if somewhat underwhelming.
  Posted from CellarTracker

[Dennis_Atick]

Bumping my own thread as I continue to wait to be wowed by Thierry Germain. Chambolle of the Loire! The next Rogeard! hmm. And I’ve had a handful more than the two wines in this thread.

• 2016 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Clos de L’Echelier - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (1/14/2022)
  This one shows heady doeses of green pepper and earth, no denying its Cab Franc. It’s shows a deft touch, but almost too deft, like there’s no there, there. Lower acidity leaves the middle feeling rather placid and one dimensional. It was good, sound, but just not much more. IJC’s note below is right on.

Posted from CellarTracker

[Mike_Evans]

This reminds me that we need to do a Loire red tasting before the end of winter.

[Scott_Tallman]

I feel ya Dennis. I bought quite a bit from various vintages (12-18) on the hype, but outside of the FdP, none have moved me or caused me to believe they are better for my tastes (and wallet) than my go tos of Raffault, Baudry and Breton. I plan to let them slumber for a long while and hope they eventually live up to the hype.

[Dennis_Atick]

This reminds me that we need to do a Loire red tasting before the end of winter.

Good point. Let’s discuss on the 26th and figure out a date.

[LasseK1]

Thanks for the notes.

I got the 2014 Memoires lined up to drink soon. Maybe I will bump this thread with a note then

[Dan_Sch]

Thanks for the notes.

I got the 2014 Memoires lined up to drink soon. Maybe I will bump this thread with a note then

I’ve only ever had a few vintages of FdP. I thought those were all pretty great but have way less depth than you.

I have so far been very impressed with Marc Plouzeau wines. And the prices make them very hard to beat

[Robert.A.Jr]

I feel ya Dennis. I bought quite a bit from various vintages (12-18) on the hype, but outside of the FdP, none have moved me or caused me to believe they are better for my tastes (and wallet) than my go tos of Raffault, Baudry and Breton. I plan to let them slumber for a long while and hope they eventually live up to the hype.

Sounds like we are all in the same boat. Every time I pop one, I expect more. Don’t get me wrong, some are very nice, especially the Franc de Pied bottlings, but the prices are high and my expectations are high. I have stopped buying. When you price yourself above the benchmark, Baudry, and you do not deliver at the level, I’m walking.

[Dennis_Atick]

Sounds like we are all in the same boat. Every time I pop one, I expect more. Don’t get me wrong, some are very nice, especially the Franc de Pied bottlings, but the prices are high and my expectations are high. I have stopped buying. When you price yourself above the benchmark, Baudry, and you do not deliver at the level, I’m walking.

This is a good summation of my experiences. Interesting to have a producer appear to not meet expectations so consistently. Maybe I’m painting with too broad a brush, but at some point you got to show up.

[J_Galang]

Thanks for the notes.

I got the 2014 Memoires lined up to drink soon. Maybe I will bump this thread with a note then

Interested on seeing the results, thanks.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Sounds like we are all in the same boat. Every time I pop one, I expect more. Don’t get me wrong, some are very nice, especially the Franc de Pied bottlings, but the prices are high and my expectations are high. I have stopped buying. When you price yourself above the benchmark, Baudry, and you do not deliver at the level, I’m walking.

This is a good summation of my experiences. Interesting to have a producer appear to not meet expectations so consistently. Maybe I’m painting with too broad a brush, but at some point you got to show up.

On paper, in particular some of his vineyards, suggest that these should be off the charts.

[Scott_Tallman]

Sounds like we are all in the same boat. Every time I pop one, I expect more. Don’t get me wrong, some are very nice, especially the Franc de Pied bottlings, but the prices are high and my expectations are high. I have stopped buying. When you price yourself above the benchmark, Baudry, and you do not deliver at the level, I’m walking.

This is a good summation of my experiences. Interesting to have a producer appear to not meet expectations so consistently. Maybe I’m painting with too broad a brush, but at some point you got to show up.

On paper, in particular some of his vineyards, suggest that these should be off the charts.

That is certainly how they are being sold. Figured my yak palate was the issue.

[Mariano_Chiaramonte]

I’ve had some of his cuvees in the over the past year. So far, my favorite remains to be his 2015 Saumur Clos du Moulin. We had it side by side with a 2014 Guiberteau Les Moulins and it really made the Guiberteau feel a little bit shy in comparison. Second in my list is the 2014 Franc de Pied which for me it did deliver the wow factor, then the 2015 Clos de L’Echelier which I think it’s very good but not brilliant, and the 2016 Clos de L’Echelier comes very comfortable in the last place, like Nikita Mazepin in his Haas. The only pleasant surprise that I had with this particular cuvee was the fact that it paired amazingly well with seared tuna.

Overall experience so far: Hit and miss

I have 2 more cuvees in my cellar that I haven’t tasted yet, the 2013 Clos de L’Echelier and the 2017 Franc de Pied so let’s see how those 2 perform.

[Julian_Marshall]

Personally, my experiences with the reds have been mainly very positive.

I only “discovered” this domain three years ago. Before, I had been wary of all the hype and was put off by the prices anyway. Getting increasingly into Loire CFs at the time, I decided to buy a few older vintages at auction to try.

My first bottle was a Marginale 2008 and I was not at all impressed - I liked the fresh intensity of the fruit, but it was somehow hollow and tiring on the palate. Then I had a FDP 2009, which was something else altogether, one of the best S-Cs I’ve ever had. I bought a lot more of the various different cuvées and since then have only had good bottles. My most recent were two excellent Marginales, the 09 and the 10.

Overall, the two red cuvées I prefer are the Mémoires and Franc de Pied. Before my two recent good ones, I would have said La Marginale was the least impressive, but now, especially in terms of price, the one with a big question mark would actually be Clos de L’Echelier. I’ve had three bottles from 2012, 2014 and 2016 which I have enjoyed but I don’t really see it as being better than some of the other cheaper cuvées - at around 25€, I’m in, but not 35€.

I agree that prices are problematic, if you buy at release. Over here, the top wines retail for 30 to 35€ a bottle, sometimes more, but I am lucky enough to be able to find them for less at auction, sometimes a lot less.

In terms of the style of the wines, each to their own - I like the intense, crunchy fruit a lot. For me, Roches Neuves reds are a little like Zero Dosage Champagne - an acquired taste which not everyone acquires. The fruit tastes are very sappy and crisp, but often not very sweet, which can be disconcerting for some. I’ve had mixed reactions from family and friends. Those into organic or bio-dynamic wines rave about them, others who prefer sweeter or richer wines don’t like them at all.

I’ve only had two whites - the top wine, Clos De Romans. Both the 2014 and the 2017 left me cold - especially knowing that they sell for around 50€ a time. I’ve had better Huets costing half that or less.

I think we all have wines we “don’t get”. I’m not very keen on Olga Raffault Les Picasses for example - I quite like it, but no more than that. Of course, the big difference is that a young Picasses only costs 15€.

[Robert.A.Jr]

I’m not sure I knows Les Picasses was not your babe. It’s pretty benchmark to me. The 2014 is killer. My Loire CF that I have every bought, 2.5 cases. So classic. On Roches Neuves, my fave bottling is the Franc de Pied. Other than 2013, I’ve liked most vintages very much. Crush, one of my core retailers, has it for $58. That places this Cuvee above Baudry on price. I buy Baudry first, always. I paid $25 for the Les Picasses

[Nathan_V]

My first bottle was a Marginale 2008 and I was not at all impressed - I liked the fresh intensity of the fruit, but it was somehow hollow and tiring on the palate. Then I had a FDP 2009, which was something else altogether, one of the best S-Cs I’ve ever had. I bought a lot more of the various different cuvées and since then have only had good bottles. My most recent were two excellent Marginales, the 09 and the 10.

In terms of the style of the wines, each to their own - I like the intense, crunchy fruit a lot. For me, Roches Neuves reds are a little like Zero Dosage Champagne - an acquired taste which not everyone acquires. The fruit tastes are very sappy and crisp, but often not very sweet, which can be disconcerting for some. I’ve had mixed reactions from family and friends. Those into organic or bio-dynamic wines rave about them, others who prefer sweeter or richer wines don’t like them at all.

I’ve highlighted a couple of important points. I consider the Marginale to be the in-between point between the old Bordelais style that the wines used to have and the new, more Saumur style that they have today.

I think “sweeter fruit” and “into bio-dynamics” is a false dichotomy. Many bio or “natural” wines are very fruity (“glou-glou”).

My issue with the Germain/Roches-Neuves wines (and I’ve had almost all of them across multiple vintages) is that I find them a little soulless. It’s not Saumur, but in Chinon I can easily tell the difference between Baudry’s different wines, the terroir really speaks. For the Germain wines, I’m not sure I can tell the difference between Clos d’Echalier, Memoires or the FDP blind. (For a Saumur, but not price, equivalent, the difference between Rougeard Clos, Poyeux, and Bourg is pretty clear.)

To be clear, I like the wines, have a few bottles in the cellar and will drink them in restaurants I just am not as enthusiastic about them as I was or would have hoped to be.

[Chris_V]

+1 that Domaine des Roches Neuves / Theirry Germain wines haven’t impressed. Give me Baudry, Olgra Raffault or Amirault ahead of them for less money any day.

[Ramon_C]

This producer is not a regular buy for me, but the 2014 Roches Neuves Les Memoires, I thought, approached Baudry’s Croix Boissee level. I drank it way too young, i.e. 4 years after vintage, but had the material to please with more cellar time.

[Dennis_Atick]

My issue with the Germain/Roches-Neuves wines (and I’ve had almost all of them across multiple vintages) is that I find them a little soulless.

To be clear, I like the wines, have a few bottles in the cellar and will drink them in restaurants I just am not as enthusiastic about them as I was or would have hoped to be.

Good summary, Nathan. And the points I’ve clipped resonate.

Thanks, all, for the discussion. Validates I’m not totally off base with my impressions of these wines.

[Julian_Marshall]

I’m not sure I knows Les Picasses was not your babe. It’s pretty benchmark to me. The 2014 is killer. My Loire CF that I have every bought, 2.5 cases. So classic. On Roches Neuves, my fave bottling is the Franc de Pied. Other than 2013, I’ve liked most vintages very much. Crush, one of my core retailers, has it for $58. That places this Cuvee above Baudry on price. I buy Baudry first, always. I paid $25 for the Les Picasses

It was an Olga Raffault Picasses 1990 that got me into Loire CF in the first place, about 20-odd years ago, but nothing I’ve tried since has ever had the same effect. It may be that I don’t wait long enough - also, weirdly enough, in the US you have access to library releases that don’t happen here.

I think “sweeter fruit” and “into bio-dynamics” is a false dichotomy. Many bio or “natural” wines are very fruity (“glou-glou”).

My issue with the Germain/Roches-Neuves wines (and I’ve had almost all of them across multiple vintages) is that I find them a little soulless. It’s not Saumur, but in Chinon I can easily tell the difference between Baudry’s different wines, the terroir really speaks. For the Germain wines, I’m not sure I can tell the difference between Clos d’Echalier, Memoires or the FDP blind. (For a Saumur, but not price, equivalent, the difference between Rougeard Clos, Poyeux, and Bourg is pretty clear.)

To be clear, I like the wines, have a few bottles in the cellar and will drink them in restaurants I just am not as enthusiastic about them as I was or would have hoped to be.

Fair points - you’re right that I should have written “sweeter and richer”! What I meant was that those who like a riper style seldom go for Roches Neuves.

I get what you mean about the obvious - or not - differences between the wines. I have never done a horizontal, it’s something I’ve been meaning to do. I have never tasted a Rougeard, but I agree that something like Hureau’s Lisagathe is easy to tell apart from their Les Fevettes, just like Villeneuve’s Grand Clos is not at all like the VV cuvée, whereas I haven’t got a completely clear idea of the taste differences between the Roches Neuves cuvées, at least from Marginale upwards.