TN: 2013 Kutch Pinot Noir Sonoma Coast (USA, California, Sonoma County, Sonoma Coast)

WINE TALK
41

Frank, I’ve come to accept that people like you and Larry (who I’m happy to see has calmly showed why David was way off base out rather than resorting to his standard civility complaint – bravo Larry) have a different perspective. But precisely because I love seeing intelligent, strong-POV posts from winemakers like the ones from Jamie here, I’m going to once again jump into the fray to say that you are not only wrong but add to the problem when you post things like “winemakers can’t win around here.” It’s just not true. Jamie spurred a great conversation in this thread. Several people engaged with him respectfully; others thanked him for his contribution. One guy felt the need to be a jerk. Rather than run away, Jamie stood up for himself. And DavidZ comes away as the one looking like a petty, anti-social bully with nothing to offer here, while EVERYONE ELSE chimes in to support Jamie.

Put in your terms – winners and losers – how does Jamie not come away as the winner here? This thread makes Jamie look great and provided him a platform to engage with people from all over who might be interested in his wines in a way that he probably does not get very often. It seems like he enjoyed himself. I’m more interested in his wines for his having posted. I’ve never had a bottle of Kutch. I’m going to seek it out now. I bet others reading this thread will too. And it wasn’t hard. Jamie had lots of support. He’ll continue to get it if he continues to contribute, maintains his equanimity, and stands up for himself when appropriate. Or if Jamie doesn’t want to deal with the nonsense, he could put DavidZ on ignore. This thread makes clear that others will do the work of defending him against pointless vitriol.

On the broader point, I do get where you are coming from. One obnoxious guest can ruin Thanksgiving dinner, even if the other 10 guests are lovely people engaging in a spirit of generosity and gratitude. But you don’t have to let him, even at Thanksgiving. More importantly, it’s a lot easier to marginalize/ignore an obnoxious WB poster at little to no social cost than a guest at a dinner party.

Finally, I should say that, while I have put a few people on “ignore,” I haven’t with DavidZ. One, I have a relatively high tolerance for acerbity. Two, I actually appreciate DavidZ’s strong POV, and I think his tasting notes and opinions are often interesting, thought-provoking, and even helpful. I think he’s earned most of the opprobrium he receives. But I think it’s worth saying that, unlike the obnoxious Thanksgiving guest, the cool thing about a forum like WB is that I can learn from and appreciate even someone like DavidZ without letting him ruin my day… as long as I don’t let him. Ultimately, it’s my choice.

My own wish is that people like you could accept that there will always be jerks (or, perhaps more both more charitably and more accurately, interesting people who act like jerks) in any open forum worth having. It’s up to you to figure out how to get the most out of it without going crazy. If you can’t do that without your blood pressure going through the roof, that’s ok. But please don’t suggest that a winemaker, or anyone else, can’t have a great time here and benefit greatly from the experience simply by approaching the forum with open eyes and a little healthy perspective.

42

Nicely put. How can someone else challenge what I think tastes good? Or what doesn’t? We all have our own taste buds and our own preferences. In the case of Jamie’s 2013 PN SC, I love it. In fact, I have not had a single bottle of Kutch wine that was less than excellent.

I don’t think a winemaker is “pimping” his wine when he offers his own views on how/why he makes the choices he makes.

43

Agreed. There is a large portion of the community that likes having access to winemakers/winery owners. Hearing their views on the process of winemaking is materially different from a retailer saying “hey I have that wine in my shop for $27.99!” The former is informational. The latter is “pimping.”

I do actually find DavidZ’s posts informative at times, despite the vast gulf in our opinions. More often than not he is a negative indicator for me. Much of what he loathes I will like.

44

Jay,

A thought provoking post indeed, at least to me.

I see exactly where Frank is coming from with his thoughts and statements - and yes, I can certainly confirm that there are plenty of winemakers who choose not to post here and elsewhere for many of the things he mentioned. There are, of course, other reasons to add on, but ‘nasty negativity’ is a main concern for sure.

And I see where you are as well. The net net of this thread is positive for Jamie - he’s been able to explain his rationale for what he does to make the best possible wines he can in his opinion. Period. He is not trying to ‘shill’ here but rather to explain - I dig this.

But this thread, and many others, certainly can do down the rabbit’s hole, so to speak, and oftentimes does. I’m glad this one has not - just as I am glad our discussion about closures has not as well. So many knowledgeable, open-minded individuals here who have so much to share, but also want to learn along the way.

Cheers

45

Well said, Jay. I hope winemakers like Jamie and Larry continue to post and share here. It would be a shame to let one negative poster (who quite frankly would never buy Kutch or Tercero!) ruin it for the rest of us who really enjoy engaging and learning from these guys.

46

Telling someone that stems are decorative is like telling someone in a 3 piece suite that they are dressing decoratively. What right is it for someone to criticize what someone else dresses like or wears.

Also, if someone thinks I am here marketing, why would they open click on a thread titled “Kutch”. Not just once, but also 8 months ago and troll and strike?

As for someone who has realized they don’t like stem’s in their wine, I feel fortunate that there is one less person to compete with sourcing and hunting down DRC, Leroy, Allemand, Jamet, Dujac and so many other great producers. Obviously your opinion on stems is in the minority as the most expensive bottles in Burgundy (which you seem to so covet) use 100% stems.

Now for Jamie Kutch from New York, not Jamie Kutch the winemaker / winery owner:

“Glad we live in the USA. Freedom to say Fukc Off Davidz!”

47

The first time I did the experiment was in 2009. I brought all the fruit we received from McDougall in on the same day and broke off a total of five - 3/4 ton fermentation bins. The de-stemmer was running at the winery and the first bin was completely de-stemmed. The second bin was moved into place and we de-stemmed 1/4 of it and moved it aside. The third bin was moved into place and we de-stemmed 1/2 of it and moved it aside. The forth bin we de-stemmed 3/4 of it and moved it aside. We then turned off the de-stemmer and filled the fifth bin 100% whole cluster. We then went back and filled the partial three bins with whole cluster and our experiment was born.

Early in my start I thought out every decision ad nauseam. For this experiment, I thought long and hard about whether to put de-stemmed fruit on the top of whole cluster fruit or vice versa when fermenting percentages of whole cluster. After some thought, I came to conclusion that it made the most sense to have the whole cluster fruit on top and de-stemmed fruit for the following reasons:

My thinking was that protecting the whole clusters was more important than protecting the de-stemmed fruit which often gets broken up a tank gets filled. I would rather have de-stemmed berries broken rather than whole clusters. What is great about whole cluster fermentation’s is that berries rarely break as the tank is filled because the stems act similar to egg containers, protecting the berries from breaking. Amazingly, I have seen 5 ton tanks fermented 100% whole cluster go completely though fermentation and the whole clusters on the bottom are still fully intact at the end of the ferment. I also wanted some “juice” in the bottom of the fermenter so as to start fermentation easier as while ferments can start inside the berry (carbonically), fermentation seems to kick-off quicker in juice. The goal was to protect the stems and not begin macerating or stomping until the kinetic energy of the fermentation began. If we do any partial whole cluster today, we still maintain that same philosophy. Today actually, we start our fermentations carbonically and once the kinetics (temperature and activity) really begin to get going, that is when we begin to macerate (foot stomp) and break up the fruit. I have thought of the ferment in the following way: Yeast is hungry for sugar. Sugar is akin to cocaine for yeast. If you give them a big dose of coke (sugar), the yeast goes crazy and eats the sugar up quickly and warms up the tank super high. That to me isn’t ideal so instead, we wait to give the yeast doses of sugar gradually. At the start we wait for a good, healthy native yeast population as each berry begins having its own fermentation inside one another (imagine thousands of fermentations inside one tank). Often with sugar levels starting off at 22 brix, we wait for a carbonic sugar drop to between 15 and 17 brix for when we do our first punch down (always by foot). It’s always a very light, a quick stomp so as to break up minimal amounts of berries (sugar release). Our sugars then always jump back up to 19 to 20 brix as that release of sugar is released from inside the skin. Then, 6 hours later, we again do a very light and quick stomp to release a little more sugar or give a little more “cocaine” to our strung out yeast cells. We continuously watch both the brix and temperature and chart our results. The goal is to try and feed the sugar to the large yeast colony slowly. Granted fermentation inside each berry is happening carbonically, but those ferments are much slower than the larger external tank fermentation.

One of the “effects” of starting our tank off carbonically is that we get incredibly high levels of CO2 in our wines. CO2 protects against oxidation and in turn, when we go to barrel with the wine, we can use much lower levels of sulfur to protect against oxidation after Malolactic fermentation. We elevage our wines at 10 parts per million which is absurdly low vs. the more industry norm of 30 parts per million. For my taste, lower levels of sulfur make for better wine.

What’s right? There is no right… It’s all a bunch of endless choices. I have thought long and hard about my choices and reasons in my continued quest to produce the wines that I desire to craft.

48

Is carbonic maceration common outside of Beaujolais?

49

Mark,

Not Jamie here, but I can tell you that Carbonic maceration has become increasingly popular domestically recently. Down here in the Santa Barbara County area, winemakers are making carbonic pinot, carbonic sangioveses and carbonic grenaches, amongst other varieties. In some cases, it’s 100% carbonic; in others, it’s only partial.

Hope that helps.

50

Thanks Larry. It’s important to get on the record the wines aren’t made carbonic. They are started carbonic only. In other terms, the wines are 10 - 20% carbonic. Just in the very beginning of ferment. They tend to not have a true “carbonic” character.

Hope that helps explain a bit clearer. It’s definitely a good and useful tool and works well with what we do.

51

Jamie, your sharing of these experiments is fantastic. Thanks again.

52

[wow.gif] Now, this was funny.

53

That does explain the sometimes spritzy and exuberant character in the wines when they are first opened.

54

Nothing a decent won’t solve David but yes, agreed.

55

30 minutes of air usually takes care of it for me. I don’t find it to be an issue.

56

To use the word “pimp” regarding Jamie Kutch is an abomination. He is among an elite group of winemakers who are utterly stand up individuals, in every way.