TN: 2004 Mauro Veglio Barolo Vigneto Gattera (Italy, Piedmont, Langhe, Barolo)

[Eric_White]

• 2004 Mauro Veglio Barolo Vigneto Gattera - Italy, Piedmont, Langhe, Barolo (4/11/2022)
  Drink up if you got 'em! Surprisingly advanced for such a young cru Barolo. Already showing some signs of bricking, on entry if you told me this was a 1974, or even 1964, I likely would have believed you. Showing advanced notes of leather, roses, tar, and a nice red-fruit perfume with some subtle spice, on the palate this is still tannic and a bit rough. Short finish. (88 pts.)
  Posted from CellarTracker

[Mikael_OB]

Hi Eric,

Based on your description it’s sounds like textbook nebbiolo with a bit of age (as should). The bricking can start taking place after only a few years, it’s part of the characteristic of the variety. Main disappointment for me would be the short finish.

[Eric_White]

Hi Eric,

Based on your description it’s sounds like textbook nebbiolo with a bit of age (as should). The bricking can start taking place after only a few years, it’s part of the characteristic of the variety. Main disappointment for me would be the short finish.

Hi Mikael, I agree, it is rather textbook, its the advancement that really surprised me - a 2004 should not be this far advanced already, in my experience. I drink fair number of old Neb, and this was right in line with something much, much older.

[Laurent_Gibet]

• 2004 Mauro Veglio Barolo Vigneto Gattera - Italy, Piedmont, Langhe, Barolo (4/11/2022)
  Drink up if you got 'em! Surprisingly advanced for such a young cru Barolo. Already showing some signs of bricking, on entry if you told me this was a 1974, or even 1964, I likely would have believed you. Showing advanced notes of leather, roses, tar, and a nice red-fruit perfume with some subtle spice, on the palate this is still tannic and a bit rough. Short finish. (88 pts.)
  Posted from CellarTracker

I often regret the way nebbiolo (quickly and badly) ages … I reported this many times on this forum (but I have very few experience with old Baroli).

Btw :
Veglio Romano & Lorenzo Barolo 2013 : 15,5/20 - 24/11/2021
Brut de décoffrage, puissant, rustique, sans aucune afféterie. Matière dense, acidité « coupante » (griotte, pour penser à un sangiovese). Tannins saillants, expression terreuse, rugueuse, austère.

Next thursday should be a great moment with a stunning panel of young wines (old aromas or tired frames should be regrettable for the prestigious classic domains) :
2020 serralunga massolino barbera d’Alba
2018 C. Falletto G.Mascarello barbera d’Alba “Scudetto”
2017
serralunga massolino barolo
serralunga massolino barolo Parafada
serralunga massolino barolo Margheria
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo Bricco Boschis
C. Falletto G.Mascarello barolo Monprivato
2016
serralunga massolino barolo Margheria
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo Bricco Boschis
C. Falletto G.Mascarello barolo Monprivato
2015
serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo riserva Bricco Boschis Vigna San Giuseppe
2014
serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda
2013
serralunga massolino barolo Margheria
serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo riserva Vignolo
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo riserva Bricco Boschis Vigna San Giuseppe
2012
serralunga massolino barolo Parafada
2011
serralunga massolino barolo Margheria
serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda
2010
serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda
C. Falletto cavallotto barolo riserva Bricco Boschis Vigna San Giuseppe
2009 serralunga massolino barolo riserva Vigna Rionda

[John_Morris]

Hi Mikael, I agree, it is rather textbook, its the advancement that really surprised me - a 2004 should not be this far advanced already, in my experience. I drink fair number of old Neb, and this was right in line with something much, much older.

Several factors could have played into the state of the wine.

Veglio is the next door neighbor and disciple of Elio Altare, and has been very much in the modernist camp. Kerin O’Keefe says he uses roto-fermenters for a short, eight-day maceration.

Veglio’s website says he and the other Barolo Boys have rethought their approach to wine, and O’Keefe says he pulled back from some of the extremes of the late 90s and early 2000s (e.g., he now uses barrels with lighter toasts), but the website says he still uses French barriques exclusively. 2004 may still have been near the high water mark for the modernist approach there.

Finally, Gattera is at a relatively low 250 meters, in a warm location, and that area along the La Morra-Barolo line has tended to produce somewhat less age-worthy wines (though that may partly reflect the heavy concentration of modernist producers in that area).

[Mikael_OB]

Hi Mikael, I agree, it is rather textbook, its the advancement that really surprised me - a 2004 should not be this far advanced already, in my experience. I drink fair number of old Neb, and this was right in line with something much, much older.

Several factors could have played into the state of the wine.

Veglio is the next door neighbor and disciple of Elio Altare, and has been very much in the modernist camp. Kerin O’Keefe says he uses roto-fermenters for a short, eight-day maceration.

Veglio’s website says he and the other Barolo Boys have rethought their approach to wine, and O’Keefe says he pulled back from some of the extremes of the late 90s and early 2000s (e.g., he now uses barrels with lighter toasts), but the website says he still uses French barriques exclusively. 2004 may still have been near the high water mark for the modernist approach there.

Finally, Gattera is at a relatively low 250 meters, in a warm location, and that area along the La Morra-Barolo line has tended to produce somewhat less age-worthy wines (though that may partly reflect the heavy concentration of modernist producers in that area).

I hear you Eric and I think John of course have valid and interesting considerations. I don’t know Veglio’s wine, so very interesting to learn (thanks John!).

Nonetheless 18 years and the taste profile mentioned is not too bad, seen it in quite a few wines from around the 10-15 year mark.
Then as you mention I have also experienced many wines 10 year older that shows fresher. Some month ago I had Colla’s 1995 Roncaglie - in that category.

[Eric_White]

Had to revisit this, given the weird previous showing. Much better, that previous seriously advanced bottle was obviously flawed, despite the cork being in perfect condition (curious what could have happened there?). Anyhow, this bottle has nice aromatics, still with roses, tar, and now with some nice strawberry notes and light spice. Tannins are somewhat drying, but good fruit, a full palate, and medium finish. Quite a difference!

[John_Morris]

Had to revisit this, given the weird previous showing. Much better, that previous seriously advanced bottle was obviously flawed, despite the cork being in perfect condition (curious what could have happened there?). Anyhow, this bottle has nice aromatics, still with roses, tar, and now with some nice strawberry notes and light spice. Tannins are somewhat drying, but good fruit, a full palate, and medium finish. Quite a difference!

Glad this bottle was better.

Natural corks can look perfectly sound yet still allow significant air/oxygen penetration. The variability, even without signs of seepage up the sides, is huge – particularly ~16 years after it was bottled.

[Raymond_Osborne]

Had to revisit this, given the weird previous showing. Much better, that previous seriously advanced bottle was obviously flawed, despite the cork being in perfect condition (curious what could have happened there?). Anyhow, this bottle has nice aromatics, still with roses, tar, and now with some nice strawberry notes and light spice. Tannins are somewhat drying, but good fruit, a full palate, and medium finish. Quite a difference!

Thanks for the notes here. I have some 16 from Veglio and liked it enough to settle for picking up the 17 which is now on the market instead… The wines are nicely priced and forward.

[Michae1_P0wers]

I often regret the way nebbiolo (quickly and badly) ages … I reported this many times on this forum (but I have very few experience with old Baroli).

This seems like a very strange opinion given that Nebbiolo is generally regarded as one of the varietals most in need of serious time to show its best and also best able to handle extensive aging. As with all grapes and the regions where they are grown, reputation for ability to age is based on the very good iterations rather than lesser products, but still I think the reputation for Nebbiolo holds and is sound. As a grape which produces high tannin and acidity it is a natural candidate for long aging. I’m also no expert, but if offered a 30±year-old Barolo, Barbaresco, etc., from a decent producer vs. a similarly aged wine from other regions and hoping for a good result, I’d choose the Nebbiolo over most. Stretch that to 50-60 years and that would be even more true. Perhaps something is lost in translation here, because otherwise I find this statement quite odd.

[Laurent_Gibet]

I often regret the way nebbiolo (quickly and badly) ages … I reported this many times on this forum (but I have very few experience with old Baroli).

This seems like a very strange opinion given that Nebbiolo is generally regarded as one of the varietals most in need of serious time to show its best and also best able to handle extensive aging. As with all grapes and the regions where they are grown, reputation for ability to age is based on the very good iterations rather than lesser products, but still I think the reputation for Nebbiolo holds and is sound. As a grape which produces high tannin and acidity it is a natural candidate for long aging. I’m also no expert, but if offered a 30±year-old Barolo, Barbaresco, etc., from a decent producer vs. a similarly aged wine from other regions and hoping for a good result, I’d choose the Nebbiolo over most. Stretch that to 50-60 years and that would be even more true. Perhaps something is lost in translation here, because otherwise I find this statement quite odd.

Thank you for quoting …
I have no certitude and as I said, I have few experience with old Baroli but I know quite well how old Bordeaux can be wonderful … and how young Bordeaux can be difficult to evaluate (Pavie is not Cheval-Blanc, Latour is not Reignac, …)

What would have been a comparison between the stunning Monprivato 2016 and Léoville Las Cases 2016 ?

[Ian_Sutton]

In *times gone by it seems to have been easier. The winemaking style was more likely (in ‘normal’ years) to produce wines that had firm tannins that would quickly overtake the fruit post release. It was then a waiting game, hoping that when the tannins eventually subsided, the wine underneath would be healthy and ideally with with the fruit partially or wholly transformed into something much more complex and unique. Sometimes the balance was wrong and the fruit died long before the tannins, and on other occasions the more rustic approach in the winery would lead to (less pleasant) rusticity in the wines. If drinking a wine too young, then you needed food (e.g. red meat) to mitigate the tannins.

Then came the wave of modernism, with impacts that we might view as good or bad (or merely different). Upfront fruit was emphasised, meaning most these days don’t suffer extreme closing down, whilst some aimed for even greater ripeness, leading to a different fruit profile, higher alcohol and lower acidity, that I believe risks early demise for the wines. Tannins were also targeted for taming, further helping to avoid/mitigate the wines shutting down, but with less certainty about whether that would affect the long term ageing potential. Hygiene in the winery also became more of a focus.

In general I think there is acceptance that the extreme end of the modernist scale is a busted flush, and that some rather expensive wines simply didn’t last the course, but hopefully were appreciated young. Beyond that, the lines are much more blurred now (and less contentious in the local community), with everyone choosing what feels right to them / for their wines.

What that leaves us with today is a broad range of styles (Pat Burton’s wonderful wiki style listing here is a tremendous resource), and with that a very large range of ageing profiles, from say Marcarini who are very much old school, to the last remnants of the revolutionary La Morra modernists. IIRC Aldo Vacca of Produttori del Barbaresco talks of his Barbaresco wines being typically at best for him at 12-15 years. That’s a lot less than the longevity of older wines from the co-op. Does this represent a stylistic change, or merely his / Italian tastes diverging from those in UK/US/Germany etc? I can’t be certain, but feel it’s a bit of both, that they do close down less firmly than before and may not have the prior longevity, plus Italians typically have drunk the wines younger than (say) the English. Time will provide us the answers, albeit with everyone experimenting a little or a lot (especially in the late 90s / 00s / early 10s) it’s a moving target (in addition to vintage variations), so not easy to be confident on small sample sizes.

*Oh and back then we didn’t butcher the Italian language by pluralising a place name like Barolo, but a vocal ex-member of this forum made it commonplace here. If someone wants to respect the language, then I’d suggest referring to ‘etichette di Barolo’ or ‘bottiglie di Barolo’ or simply use English and say Barolos - that’s perfectly fine in English.

[Laurent_Gibet]

In *times gone by it seems to have been easier. The winemaking style was more likely (in ‘normal’ years) to produce wines that had firm tannins that would quickly overtake the fruit post release. It was then a waiting game, hoping that when the tannins eventually subsided, the wine underneath would be healthy and ideally with with the fruit partially or wholly transformed into something much more complex and unique. Sometimes the balance was wrong and the fruit died long before the tannins, and on other occasions the more rustic approach in the winery would lead to (less pleasant) rusticity in the wines. If drinking a wine too young, then you needed food (e.g. red meat) to mitigate the tannins.

Then came the wave of modernism, with impacts that we might view as good or bad (or merely different). Upfront fruit was emphasised, meaning most these days don’t suffer extreme closing down, whilst some aimed for even greater ripeness, leading to a different fruit profile, higher alcohol and lower acidity, that I believe risks early demise for the wines. Tannins were also targeted for taming, further helping to avoid/mitigate the wines shutting down, but with less certainty about whether that would affect the long term ageing potential. Hygiene in the winery also became more of a focus.

In general I think there is acceptance that the extreme end of the modernist scale is a busted flush, and that some rather expensive wines simply didn’t last the course, but hopefully were appreciated young. Beyond that, the lines are much more blurred now (and less contentious in the local community), with everyone choosing what feels right to them / for their wines.

What that leaves us with today is a broad range of styles (Pat Burton’s wonderful wiki style listing here is a tremendous resource), and with that a very large range of ageing profiles, from say Marcarini who are very much old school, to the last remnants of the revolutionary La Morra modernists. IIRC Aldo Vacca of Produttori del Barbaresco talks of his Barbaresco wines being typically at best for him at 12-15 years. That’s a lot less than the longevity of older wines from the co-op. Does this represent a stylistic change, or merely his / Italian tastes diverging from those in UK/US/Germany etc? I can’t be certain, but feel it’s a bit of both, that they do close down less firmly than before and may not have the prior longevity, plus Italians typically have drunk the wines younger than (say) the English. Time will provide us the answers, albeit with everyone experimenting a little or a lot (especially in the late 90s / 00s / early 10s) it’s a moving target (in addition to vintage variations), so not easy to be confident on small sample sizes.

*Oh and back then we didn’t butcher the Italian language by pluralising a place name like Barolo, but a vocal ex-member of this forum made it commonplace here. If someone wants to respect the language, then I’d suggest referring to ‘etichette di Barolo’ or ‘bottiglie di Barolo’ or simply use English and say Barolos - that’s perfectly fine in English.

Thanks … I must add that I am really not a fan of modern styles (Rivetti, Sandrone, Voerzio) … wood does not seem to be a good friend for Barolo (same for grenache in Châteauneuf-du-Pape).

Btw, and you pointed it, the border between modern and traditional style is not so clear …

If I understood well, Fabio Alessandria (Burlotto) likes Barolo in the range 10-15 years.
We saw that when he came for a great verticale in Toulouse (and I do not forget that he did not elaborate the oldest wines we tasted).

Verticale de Burlotto à Barolo – In Vino Veritas Toulouse

How do “botteglie di Brunello” or rosso di Montalcino age ?

[Ian_Sutton]

Hi Laurent
Similarly I was never a fan of the full modernist style, but did for instance:
a) like some more restrained modernist / modernist leaning producers e.g. Mauro Molino
b) respect that La Spinetta’s were impressive Barbaresco wines, just not what I was looking for (unlike their two Moscato d’Asti wines, which I like a lot). The prices were high as well.
My preference remains for the traditional style, and I’ve always enjoyed cellaring wine, so remain happy to wait.

I’m definitely not the person to ask about Brunello or Rosso di Montalcino - I’ve often struggled with the former, tending to prefer the tighter styles of (Vino Nobile di) Montepulciano and Chianti. I’ve drunk very little Rosso di Montalcino. The oldest Chianti I’ve drunk was a bottle of Monsanto’s 1968 Chianti Classico Riserva (not the Il Poggio), which we drank with friends in 2016. They’d visited the winery and one spoke with so much excitement about seeing bottles of the 1968 Il Poggio in their cellars, that when I saw that bottle I thought it would be great to share with him. It was definitely over-mature (which I like/enjoy) but also very much alive. Checking my CT notes, I have actually had a Brunello from one year earlier: 1967 Camigliano Brunello di Montalcino Riserva (drunk in 2008). Likewise that was fading, but light/delicate and complex, and I very much enjoyed it. I’m not so convinced that modern Brunello is anything like the wines of that era, but others better informed than me can confirm or refute that view.

[Laurent_Gibet]

Hi Laurent
Similarly I was never a fan of the full modernist style, but did for instance:
a) like some more restrained modernist / modernist leaning producers e.g. Mauro Molino
b) respect that La Spinetta’s were impressive Barbaresco wines, just not what I was looking for (unlike their two Moscato d’Asti wines, which I like a lot). The prices were high as well.
My preference remains for the traditional style, and I’ve always enjoyed cellaring wine, so remain happy to wait.

I’m definitely not the person to ask about Brunello or Rosso di Montalcino - I’ve often struggled with the former, tending to prefer the tighter styles of (Vino Nobile di) Montepulciano and Chianti. I’ve drunk very little Rosso di Montalcino. The oldest Chianti I’ve drunk was a bottle of Monsanto’s 1968 Chianti Classico Riserva (not the Il Poggio), which we drank with friends in 2016. They’d visited the winery and one spoke with so much excitement about seeing bottles of the 1968 Il Poggio in their cellars, that when I saw that bottle I thought it would be great to share with him. It was definitely over-mature (which I like/enjoy) but also very much alive. Checking my CT notes, I have actually had a Brunello from one year earlier: 1967 Camigliano Brunello di Montalcino Riserva (drunk in 2008). Likewise that was fading, but light/delicate and complex, and I very much enjoyed it. I’m not so convinced that modern Brunello is anything like the wines of that era, but others better informed than me can confirm or refute that view.

I had a somewhat weird (so much blackcurrant) Chianti Classico Riserva Castello di Monsanto ’’Il Poggio’’ 2010 in 2015 (90% Sangiovese, 7% Canaiolo, 3% Colorino - Barberino Val d’Elsa - Agriculture raisonnée - élevage 20 mois en barriques et demi-muids français puis 6 mois au moins en bouteilles)

Much too young … wait another 10 years.