TN: 2004 Jacques-Frédéric Mugnier Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Clos de la Maréchale

[Wayne_Alleyne]

@Mike During

Hi Wayne, sure they did but I don’t have to agree with them. As you know I drink a shit load of burgundy and am quite capable of assessing a wine for myself. The top 96’s are great wines and nowhere near ready due to the acidity. I certainly have not seen any sulphur issues.
Jancis reference to the acids in 04 only suggest they will be longer lived wines than expected. Structurally many are sound, it is only a flavour that people have an issue with and really wine is all about structure and 04 is not too bad, certainly much better than a vintage like 1997.
Pyrazines are natural so Bill’s theory is by no means generally accepted. It is not as if ladybug are unique to 04 sthey are in the vineyards vintage to vintage. DRC and others have the resource to handle pests but all their wines pretty much had the character. Some people are sensitive to GMs, others like me and I think Tom, like cooler vinous characters every now and then, and know the wines evolve into something attractive. I see it in this wine. Cheers Mike

Absolutely Mike, I certainly have no problems with you knowledge, competence to assess and ability to drink shit loads of Burgundy. Not to mention your generosity. We all have own opinions on any given wine at any given time which makes our love of wine so interesting and triggers so much great debate………even at a theoretical level.
I guess what I am alluding to is if the base material is flawed, over time those flavor’s and structural weakness are exasperated. With age vegetative, acidic, suphur and tannic elements can overpower any positive elements that a wine may have had in the bloom of its youth and inhibit its development over time. Once on that slippery slope, my experience is it’s the “highway to hell”……. but as you say the proof is in the bottle.

[Mike_During]

Wayne, if the base material is flawed for sure… but 04 is no different to any other vintage, it should not be singled out. Many say 03 is flawed across the board because of the heat, 06 is flawed in some villages and domaines, 07 similar, even 09 a great vintage has detractors. Burgundy is a region where generalisation should not be applied, the number of different climat and producers makes them worthless.

[Gerhard_P]

@Mike During

… and really wine is all about structure and 04 is not too bad, certainly much better than a vintage like 1997.

Mike,
I heavily disagree about THAT!
During the last years I had not one single 1997 Burg that wasn´t at least a pleasure to drink, very good, fine, and some where great (I think they are in a great state now)

• but on the other hand I had only two 2004s that didn´t put me off due to astringency and GM …

And BTW: wine isn´t “all about structure” (as a human isn´t all about bones) … it is all about balance (at least IMHO).

[Mike_During]

@Gerhard P.

@Mike During

… and really wine is all about structure and 04 is not too bad, certainly much better than a vintage like 1997.

Mike,
I heavily disagree about THAT!
During the last years I had not one single 1997 Burg that wasn´t at least a pleasure to drink, very good, fine, and some where great (I think they are in a great state now)

• but on the other hand I had only two 2004s that didn´t put me off due to astringency and GM …

And BTW: wine isn´t “all about structure” (as a human isn´t all about bones) … it is all about balance (at least IMHO).

To me structure is more than just bones… it includes muscle, fat, fitness… as a wine has acid, tannins, sweetness, representing balance as you suggest. Flavours (like GM) are face value stuff with no significance other than individual preference.
Presently drinking a 2004 Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru Aux Reignots which has much more to it than any 97 I have tasted, including the Jadot GCs, I am thinking the top rated Bonnes Mares and CdB…

[Tom_Blach]

It seems that 97s are generally looking pretty good now. This was not at all the case ten years ago when many wines seemed to be going downhill very fast. I have found this evolution quite instructive. I do think,with Mike, that 04 is a more interesting vintage.

[Robin_Wu]

@Markus S

I also bought a few Lafarge grand cru’s from that year, one of which I tried and was really green (young too, but that’s another topic!)

Michel Lafarge has grand crus?

[Gerhard_P]

@Mike During

Presently drinking a 2004 Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru Aux Reignots which has much more to it than any 97 I have tasted, including the Jadot GCs, I am thinking the top rated Bonnes Mares and CdB…

The Liger-Belairs were one of the 1-2 exeptions I mentioned!

@Mike During

Flavours (like GM) are face value stuff with no significance other than individual preference.

I cannot agree with this statement sorry.

[Tom_Blach]

Gerhard, Liger- Belair being an exception reminds me of the premox thing. Some bottles from there have been notably affected. Myself I think they will come out fine, but at the moment there is undoubtedly a bottle to bottle element. Some will put this down to the varying perceptions of the particular drinker and that is true with all observations about wine, but it can’t be the whole story

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Tom Blach

@billnanson

Sorry Peter, but 94s never tasted/smelled like 04s (and like many early 11s already do). A bit green as in under-ripe perhaps like some 98/08s and often rather dull (no energy) but they never had the smell that is so very different about 04/11…

I agree Bill, and our other point of agreement is that the 04 problem is nothing to do with greenness. What I do remember is how awful 94s were at ten years old, browning, drying out and seemingly at death’s door. Nowadays most 94s I come across(they tend to be only from good sources) have a great deal of genuinely burgundian pleasure to offer, and are so much fresher than they were ten years ago. What surprises me just a little, with what seems to me your exceptional grasp of the way red burgundy ages, is your rejection of the idea that salvation is possible in a similar way for 2004, which disregarding this particular problem(a large thing to disregard, certainly) is a very much better vintage than 94.

Tom, I was planning to stay off this thread , as it epitomizes the futility of having a sane discussion of this vintage, given peoples’ genetic differences. But…you comment about 2004 being much better…other than the vintage’s plague…is like the old saw that at least Lincoln got to see a better play at Ford’s theater than he had the previous time he was there…or…"other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? "

[maureen_nelson]

I had the 04 marechale from my cellar in june 2012 - alongside several other 04s (e.g., bachelet corbeaux, grivot echezeaux and a couple others) and my burgundy group - all experienced burgundy drinkers - really liked the mugnier. In fact we liked all of the wines except the bachelet. The mugnier was our favorite.

I opened another bottle this past october and my note says “eh” - as I recall, I didn’t care for it and I suspect it showed some green.

What does this tell us? What you get when you cross an elephant with a rhinocerous - hell if I know!

[Gerhard_P]

@Tom Blach

Gerhard, Liger- Belair being an exception reminds me of the premox thing. Some bottles from there have been notably affected. Myself I think they will come out fine, but at the moment there is undoubtedly a bottle to bottle element. Some will put this down to the varying perceptions of the particular drinker and that is true with all observations about wine, but it can’t be the whole story

Tom,

I initially had some reservations as a bottle of Vosne Clos du Chateau 04 showed astringency and slightly green flavors in our vintage tasting in early 2007, but nevertheless it was one of the “least affected” in that tasting (incl. the big names from Rousseau to Vogüé).
Several later tasted bottles were fine, incl. La Romanée 04 in my comprehensive LR-tasting of 41 vintages in June 2012 - the bottle was outstanding (93p) with only a tiny herbal hint.

[Mike_During]

@Gerhard P.

@Mike During

Presently drinking a 2004 Domaine du Comte Liger-Belair Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru Aux Reignots which has much more to it than any 97 I have tasted, including the Jadot GCs, I am thinking the top rated Bonnes Mares and CdB…

The Liger-Belairs were one of the 1-2 exeptions I mentioned!

@Mike During

Flavours (like GM) are face value stuff with no significance other than individual preference.

I cannot agree with this statement sorry.

Hi Gerhard, certainly some wine faults like TCA are real faults but I do not see the 04 GMs as a generic fault, on occasion I have not liked them and even some earlier bottles of this wine were difficult to like. Still, I see the GMs as a vintage character rather than a fault, whether I like it or not.

[Mike_During]

@maureen nelson

I had the 04 marechale from my cellar in june 2012 - alongside several other 04s (e.g., bachelet corbeaux, grivot echezeaux and a couple others) and my burgundy group - all experienced burgundy drinkers - really liked the mugnier. In fact we liked all of the wines except the bachelet. The mugnier was our favorite.

I opened another bottle this past october and my note says “eh” - as I recall, I didn’t care for it and I suspect it showed some green.

What does this tell us? What you get when you cross an elephant with a rhinocerous - hell if I know!

Experienced similar with the 04 Engels. Cheers Mike

[Mike_During]

@Tom Blach

Gerhard, Liger- Belair being an exception reminds me of the premox thing. Some bottles from there have been notably affected. Myself I think they will come out fine, but at the moment there is undoubtedly a bottle to bottle element. Some will put this down to the varying perceptions of the particular drinker and that is true with all observations about wine, but it can’t be the whole story

Agree, still it makes it a interesting vintage not being sure how the next bottle is going to show.

[D_Wirsig]

Thanks all for the notes on comparative vintages.

I had a number of 04 Mugnier Marechale in 375ml, but finished my last a few years ago. I enjoy green notes but found it to be much leaner of a wine than I desired rather than having flattering green notes. I wish I still had a few to pop open.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Mike During

Wayne, if the base material is flawed for sure… but 04 is no different to any other vintage, it should not be singled out. Many say 03 is flawed across the board because of the heat, 06 is flawed in some villages and domaines, 07 similar, even 09 a great vintage has detractors. Burgundy is a region where generalisation should not be applied, the number of different climat and producers makes them worthless.

Yes - generalisation in Burgundy for the beginners.

J. Morris talked a lot about the importance of producers ( including which village he lives and from).

[Peter_Chiu]

Please !!

Could we not talk about enjoyment of greenliness of 2004 red so that Stuart may join me in this interesting thread …

[Brady_Daniels]

When discussing the 2004 taint, could we use a different descriptor than green? It isn’t even particularly green! Can we just call it ladybug or something? Green is okay. Ladybug ain’t.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Brady Daniels

When discussing the 2004 taint, could we use a different descriptor than green? It isn’t even particularly green! Can we just call it ladybug or something? Green is okay. Ladybug ain’t.