TN: 2004 Burgs at La Mangeoire in midtown East

WINE TALK
1

We had a nice little group get together at La Mangeoire on 2nd Avenue on a warm and rainy night. A nice charucterie plate (pate, mousse, sausage, duck breast, cornichons, celeriac remoulade) was a nice way to start. After that, we started our search for the Greenie Meanies in 2004 Burgundy. I’d say on a scale of pyrazine sensitivity of one to ten I’m probably a 3 or 4, and yet have had mixed results, but thought some wines improved lately. So trying to keep an open mind:

2004 Lafon “Santenots” Volnay 1er
This was a perplexing wine. Red fruit and a hint of celery stalk on the nose but no TCA, but on the palate (unusually) I thought corked or at least musty. Later the corkiness seemed to fade to me, but others (who initially didn’t think corked) thought it worse. ?

2004 Leroy Bourgogne
Green, mean, sour. Someone commented “this is more Lee Roy than Le Roi”. C/C+

2004 Meo-Camuzet “Chaumes” Vosne-Romanee 1er
Some green, rather lifted nose, some wood, high acids. I liked this more on revisit. B/B+

I enjoyed the roast chicken, frites, and butter lettuce.

2004 Barthod “Beaux Bruns” Chambolle-Musigny 1er
Probably my wine of the night. Polished, full fruited, spice and smoke.
B+/A-
2004 Potel “Aux Echanges”Chambolle-Musigny 1er
A monopole I’ve never heard of. Pine needle and bell pepper, red fruits, B/B-

2004 Clos des Lambrays
Green notes, but more herbal here. Lighter-bodied, mature. Actually as a wine I’m ok with this, but disappointing as a 10 year old GC. B

2004 Fourrier “Clos Solon” Morey-St. Denis
Herbal, moderate fruit, not so long but good village wine. B

2004 Roty “Champs Chenys” Gevrey Chambertin Vieilles Vignes
The green on this is more pine-needle than herbal, a bit clipped, not my fave B-

2004 Ponsot Chapelle- Chambertin
Meaty, full, floral. B+

2004 Fourrier Griottes-Chambertin
Nice package except for a rubbery thing on nose. Nice mouthfeel, good flavors, but the reduction keeps it out of favorites (air helped but not a lot) B

2004 Bouchard Chambertin-Clos de Beze
Full, some wood, just a hint of green tobacco leaf, red fruits, a little forest floor. I like. B+

2004 Fourrier “Clos St Jacques” Gevrey-Chambertin 1er
Black cherries, spice and herbs, fairly lush on palate. B+

So as a low to moderately GM-sensitive I found some wines to like, but nothing to really seek out. Others with high sensitivity found less to like.

As we ended with cheese (Comte and Ossua-Iraty) I enjoyed a couple of Champagnes

Charles Dufour Bulles de Comptoir Champagne
Citrusy, low dosage, good. B

Vouette & Sorbee Saignee de Sorbee Rose Champagne
Dry, crisp, needs food, full, I like a lot. B+/A-

Fun educational night.


Grade disclaimer: I’m a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn’t drink at a party where it was only choice.Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

2

Sounds awful. I often wish I were at some of the events reported on WB. (Even some of the events where a manageable number of 2004s are tasted; I’m perpetually curious and even bad experiences help appreciate the good ones.) Not this one! Better you than me. Though I do like Comte cheese.

So much for the claim that the 2004s have transmorphed into sleeping beauties, as reported (by some of the attendees) from the lavish event in LA this spring.

What a mess!!

3

Thanks for the notes, Dale. I found it interesting that your WOTN, Barthod Beaux Bruns, is also the best bottle I’ve had from 2004 (out of about 60 bottles of wine and two dozen different bottlings). I have a had a couple and I scored them both at 91. That ten years out and the best I’ve had comes in at a 91 is telling. I didn’t find any green, which is one of the few I can say that about. Most of the worst wine I’ve ever had or poured out has been from this vintage. Unfortunately, I paid $75-80 bucks for them too.

The lost message is even if the wine isn’t green, it just wasn’t a very good vintage.

Of my last three 2004s, two of the three have seemed better than their previously consumed siblings. That said, I’m glad I’ve only got a handful of these left. I’ve got better ideas for these slots in my cellar.

4

Weird. Last time I had a bunch of 04s in one shot the Barthods were by far the most tainted, totally undrinkable.

5

Keith, I do not doubt you at all. While less variable from a case than white Burgundy premox, it still feels like playing Russian roulette every time I open a 2004.

Perhaps the new term for Berserkers will be “Coravin Russian roulette.”

6

Putting aside the green for a moment, an issue I’ve experienced (and seen others comment on) is that a number of 04 Red Burgs have been “prematurely advanced”. No problems there?

RT

7

Never bought any 04s, glad I didn’t as I am very GM sensitive. That said, sounded and looked like a fun night!

8

Thanks for the notes, Dale,

The 04 Barthod Beaux-Bruns was one of the main wines of which I was thinking when I said (apparently notoriously–Josh Kurek are you there ?) that I had not had problems with the 04; the Perrot-Minot C-M Combe D’Orveau was another–and I thought the oak not too pronounced, though I know others disagree.

On that note, I was interested in your comments and experience with the Fourrier (as well as others). Do you think it is just this vintage or are his wines generally a little up and down? He is clearly very highly esteemed on this board (and elsewhere), and I have not drunk much (and certainly not his gc’s). But of maybe 3, I’ve found serious reduction on one (wife would not drink it) and some sort of odd, slightly buzzy, acid note in another. Neither were '04’s ('07 &'09).

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Josh

9

Josh - Fourrier wines almost always have a Co2 spritz which accounts for your ‘buzzing’ observation. Give the bottle a few vigorous shakes or a long decant and it’ll be fine. Reduction would seem to be a risk as well considering their approach to racking (which is likely much of what accounts for the co2) although I have not experienced that issue myself.

10

And tied for wine of the night of the '04 Burg tasting was - a Champagne. That says a lot.

11

Stuart

There were only two wines rated below B- (in his rankings B is a good wine) - how can that be a mess?

I was at the '04 tasting in LA and I can assure you that all of the very experienced tasters were very pleased with all but a couple of the wines at that tasting. I’d drink the 04 La Tache, DRC Richebourg, Hudelot Noellat Richebourg, and Bouchard La Romanee any night and for any occasion. As well as several of the others we had that night…

12

Jerry…I never ever read people’s scores/grades…just the descriptors. Such things tell me nothing. It sounds like a mess to me…or worse. (In fact, given Dale’s self-description as not that sensitive…and the verbal descriptors…I sense that I might have literally been nauseated by that group of wines, as I have by some 2004s; it’s that offputting to some.)

I have no doubt that the people there were “pleased” with what they experienced. I’ve never questioned that and would not. I take issue with Don’s proclamation of a sea change in the character of the wines, as drawn from that tasting.

Given the setting, the luxurious foods, the too-many wines for a human to appreciate at one event, the “dissenting” notes; that the wines ranged from the “top of the top to the bottom of the top of the top”…and the variations we have all seen with this issue…i only questioned making any pronouncements about the evolution of the problem as Don did.

I would never question what people thought they tasted…or tasted. That would be beyond silly.

13

Stuart, the Barthod, Ponsot. Fourrier CSJ, and Meo were all very good wines. The Fourrier Griottes had no green but suffered from some other issue. Some thought reduction but it didn’t get better so not sure what the flaw was. I’m glad I own the Ponsot and at a good price I would buy the Fourrier CSJ and Barthod.

Couple other recent '04s tasted were a mag of Cathiard Malconsorts that was mind-blowingly good and a Thibault Liger-Belair les saint georges that had no green.

14

why would anyone engage with stuart on this issue?

you can bang your head against the wall all you want, but the wall doesn’t care.

15

Where is Tom ?.. newhere

16

I concluded that it is best to treat the 04 taint like VA, Brett or ABV not like TCA. If you are really sensitive to the 04 taint, you also need to be careful with the 11s.

17

As others have noted, this wasn’t - for me- an awful tasting. There was nothing I went immediately to Wine Searcher to look for, but would happily drink again (or buy at good price) the Barthod, Meo, Beze, Chapelle, CSJ. The Leroy and Roty were the 2 wines that if I served for dinner with my wife then I would head back to cellar.

Not related to 2004 Burg, but why does it distort /expand the thread every time Stuart is latest poster (his name appears under the thread instead of on right?)

Keith, this Barthod seemed clean. But I’ve had variable experiences with other 2004 Burg- the Mugnier Marechal and Chevillon Vaucrains have been horribly green or pretty clean. As I was entering note in CT I noted you’ve had similar disparities with the Lambrays.

Richard, the only bottle that seemed more mature than I expected was the Lambrays.

18

For the same reason that you just did, jaakov.

It’s irresistible.

19

Duh, his name is too long for software(now I see it happens with Terrence TBone Livingston as well). Should have guessed

20

Thanks, Paul. 4/12 is a good batting average…for baseball. But, for a winetasting…not.

The other 8 are what I look at as the “mess”. I guess it’s the old “2/3 empty or 1/3 full?” issue.