Open it at 2:00pm or so. I like bright juicy red wines with steak, and as the tertiary flavors of the 11 Souris come out, that should be a great match!
I like pouring 2-3 oz, and letting the bottle sit for 4-5 hours. But decanting should also do the trick, I would guess about an hour should work with the decanter.
That specific wine ranks very high on scale of how much air can change a wine. It’s very pretty red fruits, light bodied and transparent, when opened, and then really shifts into savory dark fruit and autumn forest mode when it opens. (Though it is under cork, so there’s been more variation than the wines closed with Diam.)
Jim, just for clarification, what do you consider a neutral barrel? Steve Edmunds once said that he doesn’t consider a barrel to be neutral until it’s had a least 5 uses (not necessarily 5 years old), but I’ve heard some winemakers say “neutral” when it’s just not a new barrel.
Really interesting discussions. Just wanted to say a special thanks to all the winemakers who participated and explained in detail their thought process and winemaking techniques. I have a lot to learn and having this forum as a resource is invaluable.
We could start an entire thread on new oak and what it really means when a winery says “X% new oak” and how that is calculated especially when some barrels are neither brand new or “neutral”. You could have 75% new oak and no new barrels.
Nobody is hiding anything but it’s not exactly obvious or straight forward for the general wine public.
And, depending on the wine itself and all the cooperage details, some oak that’s been used a few times can still clash with and detract from a wine. Other oak that’s brand new can integrate and take a supporting role, not doing imparting awkward or obnoxious. So, some wines that are 100% new oak don’t come across as “oaky” to most people, and some wines in “100% neutral oak” come across as disgusting to some people. Good winemakers will be building on their knowledge and experience what barrels are appropriate for which wines.
Couple of years back I bought a couple of barrels from a cooperage I had never heard of before. The guy was great. Tasted through wines in barrel and he really got what I was talking about and what we are looking for in our wines and barrels. Barrels show up and they are GORGEOUS. Freaking works of art. Very excited. Unfortunately any wine in them ended up tasting like Christmas. Had to bury some good stuff in the biggest bottling. Took 2 vintages before they even tasted like a regular new barrel. They were actually nice at that point but there was pain and suffering up to that point. Not a repeat customer.
And style, site, and vessel size all make a difference.
The 2017 Ribbon Ridge is 40% new 500L puncheon from the same cooper Jim isn’t a repeat customer of(I like Christmas ). I’m not sure which barrels Jim used, but they were nice enough to make me forest specific puncheons. I get Orleans, Bercé, Civrais, Darney, and Citeaux from 36 months seasoned wood. The 500L puncheons behave completely differently than the 228s, and each of the forests is it’s own unique expression. And of course Whistling Ridge handles new wood differently than Durant or Fir Crest where I rarely use new oak at all. I also will sometimes let a puncheon sit for a year in the winery before we use it, and that time will alter the impact.
I stopped talking about percentage of new wood in my wines because the difference between 500L and 228L is so large. And 20 months in a puncheon means that my second fill barrels have seen two vintages pass before they are used again.
The use of new barrel just isn’t the a-b-c impact that it’s often made out to be. And usually there are other aspects in the wine exacerbating the presence of barrels: enzymes, alcohol, powdered finishing tannins, etc.
This thread has gone from fascinating to brain exploding. Forest specific puncheons? I had no idea. I’m sure Civrais has a different effect from Orleans. Jim and Marcus, thank you for the great discussion.
The vineyard sets the pace, everything else drops in behind. It’s fascinating and uplifting to find the right combinations. Pinot Noir is a hard grape. Channeling another thread Jim and I popped of on, it’s a bit like golf. Anybody can hit a great shot, and decent golfers can have a good round. But consistently scoring below par needs more than “grip it and rip it” as a mindset.
That’s been one of the interesting parts being a relatively new consumer, reading between the lines trying to understand why a producer is highlighting certain aspects. While transparency is nice (i’m a nerd, I love data), I appreciate wine being presented in a representative way. I did not get the sense from the 17 Ribbon Ridge that a lot of oak was used, so had it been sold that way I would, as an admitted novice, been a little confused. I tend to think that a producer highlighting new oak is using that as a selling point because their product will match expectations.
That’s an interesting idea. While I hadn’t thought of oak being used that way, it makes sense. I highlight vineyard, as does Jim(I would guess), because I believe that will meet expectations. I would guess that both of us choose vessels that we feel aids in highlighting the site.
). I’m not sure which barrels Jim used, but they were nice enough to make me forest specific puncheons. I get Orleans, Bercé, Civrais, Darney, and Citeaux from 36 months seasoned wood. The 500L puncheons behave completely differently than the 228s, and each of the forests is it’s own unique expression. And of course Whistling Ridge handles new wood differently than Durant or Fir Crest where I rarely use new oak at all. I also will sometimes let a puncheon sit for a year in the winery before we use it, and that time will alter the impact.