The End of Western Civilization: Riedel

[thomasP]

@TomHill

@thomasP

@Oliver McCrum

Alan,
Even if it only changes the aroma, and it seems hardly disputable that it does that, IMO it would certainly be worth it.

A change in aroma SHOULD cause a change in our perception of the taste. The two are tightly linked. Some believe that without aroma you can’t taste…hold your nose and compare Riedel with the same wine in another glass; then, do it again without holding your nose. The wine probably will taste the same from each glass the first time and different from each glass the next time. At least that’s the hypothesis.
Now that I think of it, the same should happen with any two glasses that are differently shaped and of different composition.

Awwwright, guys…this thread is supposed to be all about making fun of GeorgRiedel…not a serious discussion!!!

Certainly the taste is seriously impacted by the aroma. But in one case, when you’re sniffing the wine, it’s delivered directly to the
nostrils. When it’s in the mouth, it’s delivered thru the inner nasal passages. Once you have it in your mouth & slosh it around, it beats heck
out of me how the shape of the glass impacts what you taste.
Tom

The shape of the glass doesn’t, but the power of suggestion does, which is what Riedel preys on.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@thomasP

@Oliver McCrum

Alan,

Even if it only changes the aroma, and it seems hardly disputable that it does that, IMO it would certainly be worth it.

A change in aroma SHOULD cause a change in our perception of the taste. The two are tightly linked. Some believe that without aroma you can’t taste…hold your nose and compare Riedel with the same wine in another glass; then, do it again without holding your nose. The wine probably will taste the same from each glass the first time and different from each glass the next time. At least that’s the hypothesis.

Now that I think of it, the same should happen with any two glasses that are differently shaped and of different composition.

There is no question that the great majority of what we experience in tasting wine in fact comes from the nose, it’s not a matter of opinion. The more I read about how we taste the more complex it seems, for one thing as Tom says there are two ways aromas can reach the nose, by sniffing and retronasally.

[thomasP]

@Oliver McCrum

There is no question that the great majority of what we experience in tasting wine in fact comes from the nose, it’s not a matter of opinion. The more I read about how we taste the more complex it seems, for one thing as Tom says there are two ways aromas can reach the nose, by sniffing and retronasally.

Yes, and important to the process is the delivery system that accents the volatiles, which is what glass shapes and quality glass do.

I don’t doubt, in fact I am certain that glasses of high quality that are designed to the greatest extent to bring out aroma also heighten the taste experience. What I doubt is that it makes the wine taste better (that’s relative and subjective) and that it can be done to highlight specific varieties (that’s ludicrous, unless every varietal wine is produced exactly alike; even then I’d doubt it).

This comment from Tran above is relevant: “The icewine in the Riedel glass was far more aromatic which in turn made it far more flavorful.”

That’s probably true, but once the Riedel rep has you thinking that more flavorful means better, you have opened yourself to the power of suggestion. From there, you can more easily be sold on the varietal wine/glass concept.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Thomas,

You seem to be making a distinction between ‘heighten the taste experience’ and ‘taste better,’ and I’m afraid that’s much too subtle a distinction for my poor brain to get around.

Besides, I have a secret passion for root beer and am breathlessly awaiting the new Sasparilla Glass. You aren’t going to talk me out of it.

[Eric_Ifune]

The few times that we’ve dined together you never mentioned your knowledge of Darby Crash or The Germs.

Grew up in the LA area in the late 70’s. Used to hang out in Chinatown at Madame’s Wongs and the Hong Kong Café.

[Joe_Hauck]

@Eric Ifune

The few times that we’ve dined together you never mentioned your knowledge of Darby Crash or The Germs.

Grew up in the LA area in the late 70’s. Used to hang out in Chinatown at Madame’s Wongs and the Hong Kong Café.

[thomasP]

@Oliver McCrum

Thomas,

You seem to be making a distinction between ‘heighten the taste experience’ and ‘taste better,’ and I’m afraid that’s much too subtle a distinction for my poor brain to get around.

Besides, I have a secret passion for root beer and am breathlessly awaiting the new Sasparilla Glass. You aren’t going to talk me out of it.

Simple Oliver: “heighten” is a sensation; “better” is a value judgment.

When sassafras was demoted to the status of carcinogenic, for me it was like the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn. Lost interest in both! But if Riedel comes up with a glass for the egg cream, that will get my attention.

PS: I’ll be glad to explain the egg cream to the uninitiated.

[Ralph_Earle]

In the 1980s my wife and I discovered that different glasses made a wine taste different. I fooled my most wine-knowledgeable friends by serving the same wine in different types of glasses that just happened to be available at a tasting.

When Georg Riedel came to Honolulu in the early 1990s we took our best glasses to the tasting, certain ours would be better than his. We were wrong.

On many occasions since, I have served the same wine in two different glasses without telling the taster anything about the wine or the glasses. Sometimes one glass was the one made for that type of wine by Riedel, the other, by Spiegelau. Other times both were made by Riedel, but only one was made for the type of wine being poured.

Every time, the taster has preferred the wine in the glass made by Riedel for that type of wine.

Just because some people are suggestible does not mean everyone is.

[David_Glasser]

I’ve tried that too, Ralph, with much less consistent results. Sometimes the “correct” Riedel wins, sometimes the “wrong” Riedel wins, and sometimes a Zalto or Schott or Spiegelau wins. Maybe there are subconscious clues we are sending based on our beliefs that are influencing the taster, or maybe there really isn’t that much of a difference between similar shaped stems, or maybe it depends on the taster. I cant speak to the details of how it went when you presented the wines, but I’m pretty sure that the conditions of my little experiments wouldn’t stand up to rigorous peer review.

I do agree with those who believe that the shape of the glass can have a profound effect on the aromatics and that that is the source of the difference in how the taster experiences the wine. I also agree with those who feel that the claims about glass shape directing the stream to the ideal spot on the tongue as the source of the different perceptions are laughably false pseudoscience.

[AndrewH]

Indeed, the glasses are here:

From Cake to Coke (Published 2013)

Scroll down.

[Alan_Rath]

I’ll be they sell a bunch of those. As they say, there’s a sucker born every minute.

[David_Glasser]

I’ll bet they’re ideal for Cali Pinot Noir.

[BuffaloLou_Saad]

@todd waldmann

I was under the impression that Western Civilization ended sometime in the 90s.

Surely this signals that a rise from the ashes isn’t imminent.

Where have you been? It ended on 12/21/12!

[Jim_Brennan]

@thomasP

The shape of the glass doesn’t, but the power of suggestion does, which is what Riedel preys on.

That, and the propensity for wine dorks to convince themselves that $60 glasses, $150 openers, and and $200 Coravin systems are a necessity and have a material impact on their experience.

[Craig_G]

@todd waldmann

I was under the impression that Western Civilization ended sometime in the 90s.

Actually, yes. We are now “Eastern Fusion” Civilization.

[CWun]

@Oliver McCrum

Well, it’s easy enough to test his hypothesis. When I tested it I found that there was a pronounced difference. His original reasoning was perhaps flawed, as I think he was using the debunked ‘tongue map,’ but for whatever reason it worked for me.

The spirits glasses make a dramatic difference, too. Unfortunately I don’t drink soda, so…

Unfortunately, the only real way to test different glasses is literally blindfolded, with someone (or a robot) holding the glass as you sniff and taste.

I’m in the camp that shape does have an effect on aroma sensation. Claims that there are ideal shapes for each variety AND that the way the liquid pours into the mouth is optimized are pure BS in my opinion.

Riedel is a good marketer and salesman. Can’t take that away from him.

[GregT]

Riedel is a good marketer and salesman. Can’t take that away from him

.

And that’s the point.

Whether people believe it or not doesn’t make it real. When people really really really want to believe something, you can’t change their minds. In fact, those are the things people are often willing to die for - i.e. beliefs.

But Reidel is missing a better opportunity IMO. Just like Heinz discovered years ago that 20 percent of their customers bought 80 percent of their ketchup, I bet it’s the same with Reidel. Heinz came out with quart and half-gallon sized ketchup bottles for their true believers.

Reidel should custom make glasses for individuals. The idea that there’s a certain glass that’s best for a certain grape is simply preposterous - every person’s nostrils, nose placement, mouth size, and mouth shape are be different. Tom has it right - once you slosh the wine around in your mouth, what difference does it make whether it came from a mug or a glass?

The idea that a Pinot Noir glass is best for a tiny-headed little guy and also a big slab-faced large-mouthed galoot makes zero sense unless one wants to believe the magic of the marketing. But imagine customizing a glass for each physiological configuration? And because the experience would be so singular, I bet people would pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for those glasses!

[CWun]

for those who want to listen in on a Riedel tasting seminar:

http://www.graperadio.com/archives/2010/03/08/riedel-whats-in-your-cabinet/

I remember listening to it the whole way through and felt disgusted. For a small sample, jump to 27:50.
He also claims later on that leaded glasses makes a huge difference.

[Charlie_Carnes]

Gosh I stopped buying into the whole Riedel thing quite a while ago. But if he can make a Coke with ice taste better than it does in a solo cup I’ll buy a set… 'cause there ain’t no way.